17 replies to this topic

[Ants_Texas]

Does anybody know what brand TarheelAnts' outworlds are? I can't find them anywhere. I can't afford to just keep buying outworlds from him, they're pretty expensive. 

[Zeiss]

Pretty sure he uses Pioneer Plastics for stuff most of the time.

[Ants_Texas]

Pretty sure he uses Pioneer Plastics for stuff most of the time.

You just saved my life. Thank you!

[OhioAnts]

Cheaper option: https://www.hobbylob...lay-Cases/p/903

[drtrmiller]

Cheaper option: https://www.hobbylob...lay-Cases/p/903

 

That's not even 2 inches wide or tall.  That's like for 1 matchbox-size car.

Edited by drtrmiller, July 30 2018 - 9:10 AM.

[OhioAnts]

 

Cheaper option: https://www.hobbylob...lay-Cases/p/903

 

That's not even 2 inches wide or tall.  That's like for 1 matchbox-size car.

 

 

Right! I have seen others post this in other threads regarding this topic. I don't believe it is exact to THA, but it is a cheaper option compared to Pioneer Plastics. 

[CoolColJ]

That one looks like the Mini hearth outworld

[Trythis22]

Acrylic is approx. 2 cents per square inch at my local home depot for a sheet 1/8" thick. Silicone adhesive is 6 dollars per tube, but remember you'll be able to create about 100 decent size boxes before you run out. 

 

Yes, you're not going to be creating any beveled edges. It looks nice but it's completely aesthetic in nature. For a box 12" x 6" x 6", you're spending $8.64 on acrylic. Here's the comparison:

 

- Buy from others: $8.99 for 10.6 cubic inches of box.

- Make your own: $8.64 for 432 cubic inches of box. 

 

You do need an initial investment in the glue, acrylic scoring knife, straight edge, scotch tape and a caulk gun if you want your life to be easy. After that investment you can make box after box, making up to 2000% returns if you make enough boxes. I've personally opted to learn how to cut glass (which is 3 cents per square inch at 1/8" thickness) and your first project is always gonna be a mess. But I've already covered the initial investment and glass aquariums are much more expensive than acrylic boxes, so I'm doing nothing but saving money from now and getting better at working with glass. I have maybe 15 hours of experience cutting and drilling glass but it's enough to measure, cut, sand, clean, tape and glue a 12"x6"x6" box in less than 20 minutes [then you need to wait for the silicone to cure]. Bigger is actually easier than smaller. So the learning curve for doing this stuff is very easy. 

 

If you're really trying to save money on something you can DIY, you're looking in the wrong place if you think switching distributors is the way to go. Swallow the initial investment, learn a new skill and before you know it you'll be well on your way to becoming a more self-sufficient ant keeper. With the internet, there's no excuse for not being able to do something because you had no teacher. 

 

It's on my list right now, but you can mix ytong yourself. The ingredients, mix ratios and curing processes are all widely available online. I went to their website and took a look at their nests. It's basically the same thing over and over: An "Etsy" product. THA has no patents on their formicariums and rightly so. I'm going to create a tutorial to show people exactly how to create a THA nest, and even better, how to customize it for themselves at a fraction of the price THA is selling them for in maybe about a month or two. If people show an interest in building their own THA nests by replying to this thread I might move that deadline forward to push back other things I have planned. I don't have much time for hobbies but I try to make the most of the time I do have. 

[drtrmiller]

Acrylic is approx. 2 cents per square inch at my local home depot for a sheet 1/8" thick. Silicone adhesive is 6 dollars per tube, but remember you'll be able to create about 100 decent size boxes before you run out.

 
Even with glass, silicone shouldn't be used for 1/8 inch material—there's not enough surface area to form a strong bond.  Acrylic, on the other hand, is typically assembled by solvent welding, not silicone.
 

Yes, you're not going to be creating any beveled edges.

Unless you've also invested in a router with the appropriate bits.
 

It's on my list right now, but you can mix ytong yourself. The ingredients, mix ratios and curing processes are all widely available online.

Are you sure about this?
 

I'm going to create a tutorial to show people exactly how to create a THA nest, and even better, how to customize it for themselves at a fraction of the price THA is selling them for in maybe about a month or two.

Just because you post the recipe for the "World's Best Chocolate Cake" on the internet, doesn't mean that everyone has the ability to replicate the end product.  THA's skills are near the top of their craft for the work they do, and no amount of instruction or revelation of trade secrets is going to turn the average hobbyist into a skilled and experienced artisan capable of replicating work that has taken years to mature, as is the case with many of the manufacturers of goods for this hobby.

As one example, dspdrew posts all his experiments here on the forum.  How many people are replicating even his most successful projects?  Virtually no one.

 

Take an easier example: water that comes from the tap is 99.999% the same as bottled water. But that doesn't stop bottled water from being a $23B market in the US alone, with the average American spending over $70 a year for the convenience of water in a bottle.  Neither cleaner, more uniform water standards, nor the advent of home filtration products, nor the enormous disparity in price between the multitudinous "brands names," all selling virtually the same product, have put as much as a dent into annual revenues.

While quality public journaling and tutorials are an admirable, welcomed, and encouraged endeavor, they historically haven't resulted in any industry disruption or benefited the average consumer, who is mostly buying a hyper-specific product for the convenience, expertise imparted by the artisan, and reputation/expectation of quality.

Edited by drtrmiller, July 30 2018 - 8:54 PM.

[Zeiss]

Cheaper option: https://www.hobbylob...lay-Cases/p/903

This is Pioneer Plastics.  I am pretty sure of it.  

[Trythis22]

drtmiller,

 

I sincerely appreciate the time you’ve taken with your response. I assure you it is not my intention to agitate you or get into petty squabbles here. I’ll take it point by point. 

 

"1/8” is not thick enough to form strong bonds." Mr. Miller, what is the intended application for these boxes? Are we subjecting them to bearing structural loads? Wind shear? Seismic loads? Water pressure? No, they are to be used as outworlds for ants. There is a minimal amount of loading from soil pressure. A box is one of the simplest yet strongest geometric shapes that does not include trusses and/or tension and compression aspects other than its walls in its design. The walls are connected and supported not only on the bottom plate but also to each other. I repeat: The claim that 1/8” is not enough surface area to form a strong bond is plain misinformation and demonstratively false; it is most likely that you are confusing different engineering concepts for different applications, i.e. missing the point. Yes, this box is not going to survive a car crash but that is not what it is designed for. For its intended application and much more, 1/8” is plenty. Most containers of this size have walls that are 1/8” or less. Silicone forms a strong bond with glass and there are many different kinds of silicone, each of which is specialized or generalized for a wide variety of applications. Silicone is also used for aquariums, which hold back immense loads from water pressure. 

 

Although silicone can be used for acrylic, you are right in that solvents specifically for acrylic will give you a much better performance at the same cost. In my haste I forgot to mention that. Weld on 3 is $8.99 for ¼ pint of solvent. Weld on 16 is $9.25 for 5oz, which is cheaper. You can make a bunch of boxes with that much glue. “Solvent welding” = Basically you take a syringe and spray the glue along the edges of the sides and bottom of your acrylic box, which will then find its way to the other side and distribute itself via capillary action, bonding the two pieces together. There is very little waste with this method so cost-wise it’s even cheaper than silicone. Application is even easier since there’s no cleanup involved, unlike silicone. 

 

The beveled edges add cost in time and materials, both of which I’m trying to reduce as much as possible? We’re talking a 500-1000% increase in initial investment. While anyone who has hands can make a box, creating beveled edges by hand is time consuming and I assure you the plastic companies have factories that automate the process of creating those bevels. 

 

Yes you can create ytong. The autoclave and instant cure is not a justified cost but we don’t need ant formicariums to be rated at 2,500 psi compression strength either, do we? Ytong has industrial uses in other countries where building methods in the US cannot be replicated at affordable prices. Its lightweight yet strong design and ease of application has given incentive to local governments in those countries to approve ytong blocks as building materials for homes, hotels, hospitals, restaurants, etc in lieu of more traditional methods. Whether your formicarium can withstand 2,500 psi or 1,500 psi does not even matter in the slightest because it’s not going to see more than... 20? Psi at sea level caused by gravity and atmospheric pressure is about 14.7 psi and assuming you have a 12”x6” bottom plate of acrylic or glass on top of your ytong, that’s 72 square inches to distribute the meager weight you’ll have on top. Let’s stop pretending that formicariums need to be bulletproof. 

 

What you are describing with the chocolate cake, Drew’s projects and bottled water is branding. I find this to be completely irrelevant to me because I couldn’t care less about branding. I am not competing with anyone or making money. Everything I do on this forum is shared with other people free of charge and with the intent to help, as it ought to be. 

 

The people have spoken for a need for cost-efficient formicariums and outworlds. I have presented a proposal as a potential solution for that need. Who said I was going to or even wanted to disrupt the industry? That is a strawman argument for an ulterior motive and you know it. 

 

-------------

 

To be honest Mr. Miller, if people want to pay a premium for convenience they will - this has been the way of the world since the beginnings of trade between civilizations. If they want to make their own formicariums, they will. I’ve seen 12 year olds engineer and build things more complicated than a THA nest. Everything you need to keep ants can be DIY’ed. We can agree to disagree but carving holes in blocks of lightweight and porous stone does not take much effort with the right tools and bits, which are not expensive if you know where to look. There are many ways to do it but I’m guessing the people over at THA or their contracted third party uses a dremel tool with a flexible shaft to do it. The easier way is to have a pre-cast mould for the ytong to cure in, in which case the owner of THA is not an artisan (because he doesn’t do anything except drill holes and put rocks and sticks in the outworld), but a businessman who uses brand name, exclusive pricing and exclusive contracting with the ytong factory or his experience with supply chain management as barriers to entry in a very niche market. I wouldn’t be surprised if he hired a sweatshop in China to manufacture these nests for 1/20th the price he’s selling them for. 

 

As someone who runs two companies in much larger and cutthroat industries, I understand the nature of competition extremely well. By definition I am not a competitor to businesses like THA or byFormica. If you see me, who you have correctly identified as the average hobbyist, as a threat to those businesses there is a dire need to review the marketing strategy of those businesses. 

 

I understand the need to keep your side business and its kind in the hobby industry relevant. My target audience is the long-term ant keeper who cannot afford to keep buying premium nests. He wants to expand his hobby, keep more colonies of ants, yet keep costs down low (and rightly so!). He is also creative and able to do work with his hands. I want to make it easy and cheap to construct high quality nests that have exactly the same functionalities as its more expensive counterparts. It's been about 2 weeks since I've started doing this but I can already tell proficiency can be easily achieved. I believe THA targets young kids, new ant keepers, other vendors and people who are not confident in their workmanship or otherwise cannot or will not build their own nests. Our target demographic is different so rest assured I am no threat to any business in this industry. If I am affecting the sales of ANY business by monkeying around in my free time, that business needs a wake up call or it’s high time for it to reclassify itself as a charity so it can at least get a break from taxes. 

 

I’d like to give due credit to the intelligence and capabilities of the average forum member on here. We need to stop thinking that people are helpless and cannot keep ants without someone to supply them with everything they need. People are much smarter than we may think and sometimes all it takes is a spark of an idea to light up a dormant flame. Even kids can achieve incredible things if they ask the right questions and apply the answers correctly and creatively.  

 

I hope that I haven't turned you off and I would love to see your contributions and insights elsewhere again soon. Thank you for the opportunity for discussion and I hope everything written here has been a good resource for all the readers. I always try to write a bit more than necessary to give as much detail and information to other people who might be reading what I write. Anyone is welcome to ask questions or correct me if I've erred. 

 

[Ants4fun]

You're going to have one floppy box with 1/8 inch acrylic! And how do you figure a 2000% return on investment?

[Trythis22]

Floppy box? I have a box I made that I couldn't use anymore due to design changes mid-way through. I decided to test its strength. I couldn't pry apart my glass/silicone box with two hands using all my strength. I had to take a razor to cut off the silicone before prying it open, and only then it didn't even open all the way - I had to take the razor to cut additional silicone between the glass layers. It's 1/8" thick, 5" long, 2" wide and 1" tall. Bottom and sides, no top. My grip strength is enough to curl 50 pounds 10 times with one arm as a warmup. I'm not bragging at all and the average adult male can do that with minimal training. I'm just saying it so you have a comparison of just how strong this box is. 

 

I'm sure if I kept at it, it would have eventually given way. But it wasn't a floppy box by any means. I have no idea where your comment came from and if I had to guess it's a result of the misinformation in the post above mine. I literally will send you a check for a 100 dollars if you build the same glass box with silicone adhesive, do it right, let it cure for two weeks, and manage to pry apart the walls with your bare hands in 20 seconds, which is how long I tried before reaching for the razor. If you curl 100 pounds for 10 reps on the daily, yeah I'm not going to send you that check. But if you're just an average guy like me you will see how strong that box is. Not to mention most containers, both acrylic and glass, of this size is 1/8" thick. The floppy box comment is killing my soul. 

 

If you want to know how to build a box, you may be surprised to know that the walls are not glued only to the bottom. They are glued and supported by the other walls as well. This is what gives a box its strength; the walls are not standing by themselves and load can be distributed instead of being held up by one wall. 

 

For the 2000% ROI, I did the math and I posted it here. But it was all wrong and when I checked the link I found that they are selling 6 boxes instead of 1. Seriously, wow. I missed the memo on the 6 for 1. For the following example we are using a box 12" x 6" x 6". 

 

If we use up the tube of solvent, we got 18 boxes and 7,776 cubic inches of area for $186 dollars. To get that same area by buying boxes, we need to purchase $1,096 worth. So we're looking at 41.8 cubic inches per dollar vs. 7 cubic inches per dollar. By the way, 7,776 cubic inches is not a lot. One box that measures 20" x 20" x 20" is 8,000 cubic inches. Think about how big an inch is. You're going to be making a lot of boxes if you invest in this and it's nearly 600% more cost-efficient than buying it pre-made. Yeah it's not 2000% because I thought it was $8.99 for one, but it was for six. However, 600% is nothing to laugh at. As I've said before, making boxes is a skill that you will gain proficiency at in very little time. It's easy. It's strong. It's cheap. It fulfills exactly the same purpose as its more expensive counterparts. 

 

Thanks for your comment Ants4fun. 

Edited by Trythis22, August 3 2018 - 12:22 AM.

[dspdrew]

@Trythis22

 

Have you been around the ant keeping community long?

[Barristan]

Go to Ikea and buy Godmorgon boxes. You can also buy them at their online shop: https://www.ikea.com...h lid, set of 5

[Splat01]

Or you can get them from Hobby Lobby if you don't want to buy them in bulk.

 

This is the container for the mini-hearths, but they do sell larger ones.

Edited by Splat01, September 26 2018 - 8:34 AM.

[xTNxANTMANx]

Edited...didn't need original and couldn't figure out how to delete the post

Edited by xTNxANTMANx, September 27 2018 - 2:02 AM.

[nurbs]

Your passion for antkeeping is welcome, but your response here is arrogant, misguided, and wrong. How long have you been antkeeping?

 

While Terry can at times be blunt, he generally make sense, and I would have to agree with his replies here. Please read up on the accumulated knowledge on these forums before you make any wild claims. Most of the older members on here such as myself share our knowledge openly, and have also spent years running into problems and then finding solutions to them.

 

Feel free to "stand on our shoulders" and learn and improve on what we've done, we welcome it! But please don't make any baseless claims. Just because you are someone who "runs two companies in much larger and cutthroat industries" doesn't mean you know all about antkeeping. There is no "competition" here other than the one manufactured in your head.

 

 

 

drtmiller,

 

I sincerely appreciate the time you’ve taken with your response. I assure you it is not my intention to agitate you or get into petty squabbles here. I’ll take it point by point. 

 

"1/8” is not thick enough to form strong bonds." Mr. Miller, what is the intended application for these boxes? Are we subjecting them to bearing structural loads? Wind shear? Seismic loads? Water pressure? No, they are to be used as outworlds for ants. There is a minimal amount of loading from soil pressure. A box is one of the simplest yet strongest geometric shapes that does not include trusses and/or tension and compression aspects other than its walls in its design. The walls are connected and supported not only on the bottom plate but also to each other. I repeat: The claim that 1/8” is not enough surface area to form a strong bond is plain misinformation and demonstratively false; it is most likely that you are confusing different engineering concepts for different applications, i.e. missing the point. Yes, this box is not going to survive a car crash but that is not what it is designed for. For its intended application and much more, 1/8” is plenty. Most containers of this size have walls that are 1/8” or less. Silicone forms a strong bond with glass and there are many different kinds of silicone, each of which is specialized or generalized for a wide variety of applications. Silicone is also used for aquariums, which hold back immense loads from water pressure. 

 

Although silicone can be used for acrylic, you are right in that solvents specifically for acrylic will give you a much better performance at the same cost. In my haste I forgot to mention that. Weld on 3 is $8.99 for ¼ pint of solvent. Weld on 16 is $9.25 for 5oz, which is cheaper. You can make a bunch of boxes with that much glue. “Solvent welding” = Basically you take a syringe and spray the glue along the edges of the sides and bottom of your acrylic box, which will then find its way to the other side and distribute itself via capillary action, bonding the two pieces together. There is very little waste with this method so cost-wise it’s even cheaper than silicone. Application is even easier since there’s no cleanup involved, unlike silicone. 

 

The beveled edges add cost in time and materials, both of which I’m trying to reduce as much as possible? We’re talking a 500-1000% increase in initial investment. While anyone who has hands can make a box, creating beveled edges by hand is time consuming and I assure you the plastic companies have factories that automate the process of creating those bevels. 

 

Yes you can create ytong. The autoclave and instant cure is not a justified cost but we don’t need ant formicariums to be rated at 2,500 psi compression strength either, do we? Ytong has industrial uses in other countries where building methods in the US cannot be replicated at affordable prices. Its lightweight yet strong design and ease of application has given incentive to local governments in those countries to approve ytong blocks as building materials for homes, hotels, hospitals, restaurants, etc in lieu of more traditional methods. Whether your formicarium can withstand 2,500 psi or 1,500 psi does not even matter in the slightest because it’s not going to see more than... 20? Psi at sea level caused by gravity and atmospheric pressure is about 14.7 psi and assuming you have a 12”x6” bottom plate of acrylic or glass on top of your ytong, that’s 72 square inches to distribute the meager weight you’ll have on top. Let’s stop pretending that formicariums need to be bulletproof. 

 

What you are describing with the chocolate cake, Drew’s projects and bottled water is branding. I find this to be completely irrelevant to me because I couldn’t care less about branding. I am not competing with anyone or making money. Everything I do on this forum is shared with other people free of charge and with the intent to help, as it ought to be. 

 

The people have spoken for a need for cost-efficient formicariums and outworlds. I have presented a proposal as a potential solution for that need. Who said I was going to or even wanted to disrupt the industry? That is a strawman argument for an ulterior motive and you know it. 

 

-------------

 

To be honest Mr. Miller, if people want to pay a premium for convenience they will - this has been the way of the world since the beginnings of trade between civilizations. If they want to make their own formicariums, they will. I’ve seen 12 year olds engineer and build things more complicated than a THA nest. Everything you need to keep ants can be DIY’ed. We can agree to disagree but carving holes in blocks of lightweight and porous stone does not take much effort with the right tools and bits, which are not expensive if you know where to look. There are many ways to do it but I’m guessing the people over at THA or their contracted third party uses a dremel tool with a flexible shaft to do it. The easier way is to have a pre-cast mould for the ytong to cure in, in which case the owner of THA is not an artisan (because he doesn’t do anything except drill holes and put rocks and sticks in the outworld), but a businessman who uses brand name, exclusive pricing and exclusive contracting with the ytong factory or his experience with supply chain management as barriers to entry in a very niche market. I wouldn’t be surprised if he hired a sweatshop in China to manufacture these nests for 1/20th the price he’s selling them for. 

 

As someone who runs two companies in much larger and cutthroat industries, I understand the nature of competition extremely well. By definition I am not a competitor to businesses like THA or byFormica. If you see me, who you have correctly identified as the average hobbyist, as a threat to those businesses there is a dire need to review the marketing strategy of those businesses. 

 

I understand the need to keep your side business and its kind in the hobby industry relevant. My target audience is the long-term ant keeper who cannot afford to keep buying premium nests. He wants to expand his hobby, keep more colonies of ants, yet keep costs down low (and rightly so!). He is also creative and able to do work with his hands. I want to make it easy and cheap to construct high quality nests that have exactly the same functionalities as its more expensive counterparts. It's been about 2 weeks since I've started doing this but I can already tell proficiency can be easily achieved. I believe THA targets young kids, new ant keepers, other vendors and people who are not confident in their workmanship or otherwise cannot or will not build their own nests. Our target demographic is different so rest assured I am no threat to any business in this industry. If I am affecting the sales of ANY business by monkeying around in my free time, that business needs a wake up call or it’s high time for it to reclassify itself as a charity so it can at least get a break from taxes. 

 

I’d like to give due credit to the intelligence and capabilities of the average forum member on here. We need to stop thinking that people are helpless and cannot keep ants without someone to supply them with everything they need. People are much smarter than we may think and sometimes all it takes is a spark of an idea to light up a dormant flame. Even kids can achieve incredible things if they ask the right questions and apply the answers correctly and creatively.  

 

I hope that I haven't turned you off and I would love to see your contributions and insights elsewhere again soon. Thank you for the opportunity for discussion and I hope everything written here has been a good resource for all the readers. I always try to write a bit more than necessary to give as much detail and information to other people who might be reading what I write. Anyone is welcome to ask questions or correct me if I've erred. 

 

Edited by nurbs, September 28 2018 - 3:47 AM.