31 replies to this topic

[nurbs]

One of the most frustrating things as an antkeeper are the kids who ask for advice, but still don't follow it, despite your most sincere efforts because they rather believe everything they see on YouTube. 

 

I even write out a detailed care sheet along with a colony purchase that is specific to that species which describes what you should and shouldn't do.

 

As most of you know, I'm not a fan of acrylic nests. I would love for acrylic to work. But they don't. This is from firsthand experience, not from what I read or watch on the Internet.

 

Like this incident here:

http://www.formicult...arium/?p=102069

 

Two years ago, I killed my favorite poly Pogonomyrmex colony with two different queens - a P. californicus and P. subnitidus. They had nearly 150 workers. God I loved that colony. I dropped them into a brand new acrylic nest thinking it would be the bee's knees. Workers started dying, and even when I moved the colony back out, they all slowly died including the queens. I cried myself to sleep for a month after that.

 

There many more examples of killing my ants in acrylic, but if I start typing it out I would start crying again.

 

Anyway, this happened today. See below. This is not the first time these conversations come up. Some of you who live out in another part of the world and think acrylics nests are the bomb because you see how awesome they are on YouTube may think otherwise, but I'm here to tell you they suck. Don't use them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by nurbs, October 12 2018 - 8:37 PM.

[Jadeninja9]

Thanks nurbs good to know. So those AntsCanada test tube portals are also made of acrylic?

Edited by Jadeninja9, September 20 2018 - 10:49 PM.

[Serafine]

Acrylic nests are okay for dry-loving species like many Camponotus species or for durable/adaptable species like Lasius niger and Formica fusca - although I wouldn't want to keep escape artists like Lasius niger or other small species in nests made of a material that over time can warp up to 1mm due to changing humidity. Obviously you should not try to keep moist-loving species like Myrmica in an acrylic nest either as they tend to dry out super fast. And plugging a water test tube into one of the ports massively helps at keeping the nest at a decent humidity and offers an emergency shelter as well (seriously, every nest should have a water tube attached).

 

The main issue with ants dying when dumped into acrylic nests is not that the acrylic is bed per se, the problem is that the ants get dumped into a new unfamiliar nest in the first place.

Seriously, don't do that. Period.

 

Unless your test tube or old nest is so moldy or damaged that the ants are guaranteed to die or escape there is absolutely no reason and no excuse to EVER force-move ants into a new nest. Ants aren't stupid, in fact they are probably way smarter than the average antkeeper and know exactly what they need and what they WILL need in the near future (in terms of additional nesting space).

 

 

Another problem is that many nests are advertised as founding nests which is just utter nonsense (but then that's probably were all the money is because how many large colonies beyond 1k do you ever see? They're probably a single digit percentage of all colonies shown on these forums, if at all). Queens and founding colonies should ALWAYS be kept in a test tube (unless they have super special needs like Myrmecocystus or only do well in a natural setup like many Odontomachus species) and they should stay in that tube until they move out on their own.

 

It doesn't matter if your small nest is made of acrylics or Ytong/AAC (which, although working great for large nests is an absolutely terrible material for small nests).

Do not use tiny founding formicaria*. The whole idea is stupid right from the start.

 

 

 

*There are a few examples of decent founding Formicaria like Drew's dirt shacks but still the overwhelming majority of founding formicaria are crap. Don't by them. Get a test tube - it's way cheaper AND way better.

Edited by Serafine, September 20 2018 - 11:01 PM.

[Jadeninja9]

Acrylic nests are okay for dry-loving species like many Camponotus species or for durable/adaptable species like Lasius niger and Formica fusca - although I wouldn't want to keep escape artists like Lasius niger or other small species in nests made of a material that can warp up to 1mm due to changing humidity. Obviously you should not try to keep moist-loving species like Myrmica in an acrylic nest either as they tend to dry out super fast. And plugging a water test tube into one of the ports massively helps at keeping the nest at a decent humidity and offers an emergency shelter as well (seriously, every nest should have a water tube attached).

 

The main issue with ants dying when dumped into acrylic nests is not that the acrylic is bed per se, the problem is that the ants get dumped into a new unfamiliar nest in the first place.

Seriously, don't do that. Period.

 

Unless your test tube or old nest is so moldy or damaged that the ants are guaranteed to die or escape there is absolutely no reason and no excuse to EVER force-move ants into a new nest. Ants aren't stupid, in fact they are probably way smarter than the average antkeeper and know exactly what they need and what they WILL need in the near future (in terms of additional nesting space).

 

 

Another problem is that many nests are advertised as founding nests which is just utter nonsense (but then that's probably were all the money is because how many large colonies beyond 1k do you ever see? They're probably a single digit percentage of all colonies shown on these forums, if at all). Queens and founding colonies should ALWAYS be kept in a test tube (unless they have super special needs like Myrmecocystus or only do well in a natural setup like many Odontomachus species) and they should stay in that tube until they move out on their own.

 

It doesn't matter if your small nest is made of acrylics or Ytong/AAC (which, although working great for large nests is an absolutely terrible material for small nests).

Do not use tiny founding formicaria*. The whole idea is stupid right from the start.

 

 

 

*There are a few exceptions of decent founding Formicaria like Drew's dirt shacks but still most founding formicaria are crap. Don't by them. Get a test tube - it's way cheaper AND way better.

While that is true, look at his theory as to why acrylic leads to many failures, for ants as a whole. It makes sense. " My theory on why ants - as a whole - do not do well in acrylic or 3d printed nests is that they have CHCs and pheremones. Some spray formic acid. Some have a poison gland. Most have a Dufour's gland. An acrylic based air tight nest that has no way for the air to "breathe" and release these scents can be harmful the ants. There is nothing in nature that imitates acrylic." 

Edited by Jadeninja9, September 20 2018 - 11:02 PM.

[nurbs]

 

 

While that is true, look at his theory as to why acrylic leads to many failures, for ants as a whole. It makes sense. " My theory on why ants - as a whole - do not do well in acrylic or 3d printed nests is that they have CHCs and pheremones. Some spray formic acid. Some have a poison gland. Most have a Dufour's gland. An acrylic based air tight nest that has no way for the air to "breathe" and release these scents can be harmful the ants. There is nothing in nature that imitates acrylic." 

 

 

Someone actually read the words instead of blindly typing out a response!

[CamponotusLover]

Great post. More people should hear this. This is another reason as to why Tarheel ants nests are still the superior brand.

[Jadeninja9]

 

 

 

While that is true, look at his theory as to why acrylic leads to many failures, for ants as a whole. It makes sense. " My theory on why ants - as a whole - do not do well in acrylic or 3d printed nests is that they have CHCs and pheremones. Some spray formic acid. Some have a poison gland. Most have a Dufour's gland. An acrylic based air tight nest that has no way for the air to "breathe" and release these scents can be harmful the ants. There is nothing in nature that imitates acrylic." 

 

 

Someone actually read the words instead of blindly typing out a response!

 

Lol I was reading your findings while I should've been reading my AP US history notes 

[Jadeninja9]

Just for the record, I kept my Camponotus hyatti colony in a test tube setup connected to an AntsCanada test tube portal, which apparently is acrylic, and they developed healthily. Maybe it's because I used cotton to plug up the portal openings which would allow for air flow. What did the kid use to plug up his portal?

[Serafine]

While that is true, look at his theory as to why acrylic leads to many failures, for ants as a whole. It makes sense. My theory on why ants - as a whole - do not do well in acrylic or 3d printed nests is that they have CHCs and pheremones. Some spray formic acid. Some have a poison gland. Most have a Dufour's gland. An acrylic based air tight nest that has no way for the air to "breathe" and release these scents can be harmful the ants. There is nothing in nature that imitates acrylic."

Acrylic nests are not closed boxes, they constist of several layers that are held together by screws or clamps and between those layers there's a lot of air exchange going on, plus they usually have quite a few ventilation holes drilled into the lid. The claim that acrylic nests don't breathe is flat-out wrong.
 
About printed Formicaria - well there's obviously a lot of vastly different designs and some are more suited to ants than others, but I can probably link you at least a dozen journals of ants that do absolutely awesome in 3D-printed nests, including my own Camponotus barbaricus (which outright exploded after moving into a 3D-printed nest and reached 5k workers within just 2 years).

http://www.formicult...baricus/page-13

 

 
 
Scientists have also been keeping ants in acrylic nests for ages.
Here's an example of a Pharao ant test colony from the 1960s (the moat they're in isn't water but paraffine oil as they constantly managed to breach the fluon barriers and dig through the vaseline plugs around the lids): https://www.ameisenf...n-t51387-8.html
 
 
I'm not saying that acrylics or 3D-printed nests work out for every single ant species, but saying acrylic and printed nests are bad for ants in general is flat-out wrong.

 

Also, if ants fail in acrylic nests due to their chemicals going haywire colonies in test tubes and tubs&tubes nests would have to fail as well. Glas is even less reactive than acrylics and with the insane humidity in test tube setups (up to 95%) those chemicals would evaporate and condensate all over the place.

 

Someone actually read the words instead of blindly typing out a response!

Do you really not see the error in your own example?

 

You're talking to kids who have no idea about ants, didn't educate themselves before getting a pet and subsequently fail at caring for it - do you really think it's the acrylic nest's fault or maybe more like the fact that they have absolutely no clue what they are doing at all?

Edited by Serafine, September 20 2018 - 11:58 PM.

[drtrmiller]

While I'm definitely sympathetic to your suspicions, it's really difficult to know what is responsible for the issues with acrylic nests in lieu of concrete evidence and comparisons—the material properties of acrylic plastic, or the layer-stacked nest construction?

 

For example, I wonder if glass was water-jet cut to the same dimensional specifications as a "failing" acrylic nest, would it would have the same problems?

Edited by drtrmiller, September 21 2018 - 1:33 AM.

[nurbs]

Glass test tubes are open ended. Acrylic nests, even ones that are sandwiched, are not.

 

 

I'm not saying that acrylics or 3D-printed nests work out for every single ant species, but saying acrylic and printed nests are bad for ants in general is flat-out wrong.

 

Also, if ants fail in acrylic nests due to their chemicals going haywire colonies in test tubes and tubs&tubes nests would have to fail as well. Glas is even less reactive than acrylics and with the insane humidity in test tube setups (up to 95%) those chemicals would evaporate and condensate all over the place.
 

 

 

 

Did you read my original post? Yes, in my own experience, it is 100% the fault of the acrylic nest. I have killed multiple colonies over the past two years by experimenting with acrylic based nests. And from that firsthand experience, I've been advising my own buyers not to use acrylic nests, regardless of how many YouTube videos they link or wish me to see.

 

You do not give children enough credit. I've never understood your disdain for them, even in other posts. I don't keep a log, but I've sold to probably over a hundred kids now. Most of them are quite inquisitive and do incredibly well with the colonies, especially when they follow instructions. But every once in awhile, you'll have someone who doesn't.

 

Why are you so butthurt that I don't like Acrylic nests? 

 

Do you really not see the error in your own example?

 

You're talking to kids who have no idea about ants, didn't educate themselves before getting a pet and subsequently fail at caring for it - do you really think it's the acrylic nest's fault or maybe more like the fact that they have absolutely no clue what they are doing at all?

 

 

 

 

I don't have all the answers Terry. Just theories. But I do have enough data to tell my buyers to stay away.

 

 

While I'm definitely sympathetic to your suspicions, it's really difficult to know what is responsible for the issues with acrylic nests in lieu of concrete evidence and comparisons—the material properties of acrylic plastic, or the layer-stacked nest construction?

 

For example, I wonder if glass was water-jet cut to the same dimensional specifications as a "failing" acrylic nest, would it would have the same problems?

 

[drtrmiller]

When we don't have answers, it is best to state observations rather than make claims like acrylic nests killed your ants.  Without evidence from a controlled experiment, how can you know for certain that acrylic nests were responsible for worker mortality, even if you observed the same result multiple times?  That's why I said one must separate the material (acrylic) from the way acrylic nests are assembled.

 

Do you think there would be a significant difference in mortality or founding outcomes for 50 queens reared in acrylic test tubes versus 50 queens reared in glass test tubes?

[nurbs]

When we don't have answers, it is best to state observations rather than make claims like acrylic nests killed your ants. Without evidence from a controlled experiment, how can you know for certain that acrylic nests were responsible for worker mortality, even if you observed the same result multiple times? That's why I said one must separate the material (acrylic) from the way acrylic nests are assembled.

Do you think there would be a significant difference in mortality or founding outcomes for 50 queens reared in acrylic test tubes versus 50 queens reared in glass test tubes?

Stating the acrylic nest killed the ants is an observation?

But yes, same result, multiple times, multiple species, over the course of two years. One of these was an Omni nest XL for a Make a Wish child.

Another was for STEMWORLD in Pasadena (https://www.stemworld.net/), a 3000+ worker Veromessor pergandei colony. At first we tried a super large acrylic nest for its oustanding visibility - but finally settled on a custom TarHeel ants Pioneer because the workers kept dying in the acrylic nest. We tried everything with the acrylic - from sealing, cleaning, over-hydrating. Nothing worked.

I don't have the time to list all the data here, but it is enough for me to say it is the acrylic's fault. Is the fault the way they are assembled? Maybe?

Are there are certain species that may do well in acrylic? Sure. But not the ants from CA.

And until I see a thriving colony of native California ants in acrylic formicarium, my advice is to stay away.

When a child purchases a colony, their first question inevitably is "which formicarium should I buy once I get X amount of workers?"

Based on the facts here, what would you have me say?

EDIT:
The V. andrei in the below images are doing very well. I checked up on them this week. They will need another Pioneer soon.

And in answer to your other question, acrylic test tubes work great for rearing. They just don't clean well and scratch up on the first use.

Edited by nurbs, September 21 2018 - 3:18 AM.

[Barristan]

Sorry nurbs but you make claim after claim without any evidence. Provide evidence that acrylic nets are bad, I haven't seen any real one except anecdotal evidence, which does proof nothing.

 

You demand people to proof you wrong but you are the wrong who has to proof the claim in the first place. So proof it!

 

And even if someone was so kind to post you proof that even large colonies can live successfully in acrylic nests, you still find excuses why this wasn't a valid point. I'm quite sure that even if someone posted pictures of a CA ant species doing well in an acrylic nest you'll still find some excuse why you don't count that.

Edited by Barristan, September 21 2018 - 3:34 AM.

[Serafine]

Glass test tubes are open ended. Acrylic nests, even ones that are sandwiched, are not.

I plug all of my test tubes with cotton and use a straw as entrance (the smaller the species the smaller the straw). I wouldn't exactly call such a test tube "open ended", it doesn't have more airflow than an acrylic nest, it probably has less (in the acrylic nest air can flow in from the botton layer and exit through the top layer, or vice versa if the nest isn't placed over a heating mat). Test tubes usually have a humidity of 95%, that's not really speaking for the air tube to "breathe" a lot.
 

Did you read my original post? Yes, in my own experience, it is 100% the fault of the acrylic nest. I have killed multiple colonies over the past two years by experimenting with acrylic based nests. And from that firsthand experience, I've been advising my own buyers not to use acrylic nests, regardless of how many YouTube videos they link or wish me to see.

Maybe your ants aren't suited to the specific conditions of acrylic nests. Maybe they aren't suited to getting force-moved and dumped into an unfamliar nest with completely different conditions than their old home. There's a lot of species, even relatively durable ones, that die when nesting conditions change dramatically at an instant.
 

You do not give children enough credit. I've never understood your disdain for them, even in other posts. I don't keep a log, but I've sold to probably over a hundred kids now. Most of them are quite inquisitive and do incredibly well with the colonies, especially when they follow instructions. But every once in awhile, you'll have someone who doesn't.

There are a lot of very smart kids more than competent enough to keep ants. But there's an at least equal number of kids that have no clue about ants or regard them as some sort of "gotta catch (or illegaly buy) them all" chinpokomon.
 

Why are you so butthurt that I don't like Acrylic nests?

Now we're getting to the point - you don't LIKE acrylic nests.
For some reason they don't work for you or maybe the species you keep - or maybe your species and resettlement into a nest with different conditions don't go together very well. There are however a lot of people who have very successfully kept ants in acrylic nests, in fact myrmecologists have done that since the 60s. You're basically claiming these cases don't exist.

Edited by Serafine, September 21 2018 - 4:48 AM.

[nurbs]

Guys, if you like acrylic nests, that's fine. No one is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to use something else. 

 

This post was created based on repeated issues myself and my buyers have had with acrylic nests. I've probably sold to hundreds of kids and reared dozens of CA species. Why would I make any of this up?

 

See, the buck doesn't stop after a sale. I answer daily phone texts and emails from buyers post sale, and the issues with acrylic are too common not to ignore. If you don't like my help and advice, that's fine. But there is no reason for me to spend precious time posting and replying on here because you think I have some weird hatred towards the acrylics industry?

 

[CamponotusLover]

For me I just prefer non-acrylic nests, my ants always do better in them, they look better and more realistic then acrylic nests, to be fair however I do prefer acrylic test tubes.

I feel like if you can get a non-acrylic nest, do it. But I guess it really depends. I do notice however some species do beautifully in acrylic nests, in particular, species that can adapt easily, species that love dry nests, etc, whereas others don't. This difference in success based on species is why overall I'd just say it's better to choose a non-acrylic nest, nests that can fit nearly all ants nesting requirements customly.

But that's just my opinion.

[Vendayn]

I like Drew's ant box the best of any of them personally. 

 

It replicates a substrate farm (which I prefer), good viewing, easy to maintain and the ants do great in them.

[AntsBC]

There is never going to be "answers" or 100%'s when it comes to nest choice. There are just too many elements and factors that go into it.

 

One thing that there will be though, is numbers. If you collected all the responses from debates like this one, I guarantee that there will be more evidence an instances of acrylic nests causing more harm than other nest types. From my personal experience and from reading about others, I would 100% say that acrylic nests aren't necessarily the best for most ants. Of course there are going to be exceptions, people are going to find that acrylic may do good in some cases, but how I like to look at it is; how good does the average Joe do with acrylic? Are there more that suffer than support? Percentages don't lie. If the average response is that acrylic has done harm to colonies, in more cases than when it has done well for people's colonies, then I would suggest staying away from them. The numbers don't lie. Like nurbs already said I don't think that there is nothing necessarily wrong with acrylic nests, I just think that on average they aren't good for your ants, which is why you might like to stay away from them. Again, there are lots of different elements that go into what nest types are good or bad for your ants, so you personally might have to do a little trial and error and find out what works best for YOU. At the end of the day, that's all that really matters.

Edited by AntsBC, September 21 2018 - 5:13 PM.

[ANTdrew]

Thank you, NURBS, I’m convinced to steer clear from acrylic nests.