11 replies to this topic

[Enthusiastic_Callow]

Ok so I'm new ti this forum and want to make a nest for my one year old Camponotus pennsylvanicus colony that has 35-ish workers. Here in Canada, I can't get the cool, modern ant nest-making materials like hydrostone, gypsum, ytong etc, but I have ready access to grout. I heard that grout is bad at absorbing water, but I figure its ok because Camponotus ants like dry air. Also, I think grout is good for my purpose because I heard that this exact species of ant is known for making excessive amounts of formic acid, which can kill them, but I also heard that grout absorbs it, which is nice. So, I was wondering if grout would work, and how I would make a humidity system for the nest? I'm thinking either a water tower/tray with super fine mesh so that ants can't get through but water can rise fron the tower or tray, or, more simply, a remote chamber not attatched to the rest of the nest that I would fill with water. Would water in this remote chamber be able to seep through into the rest of the nest to humidify it? I think it will, slowly but surely, (which is ok because once again camponotus like dry air), but I was wondering if anyone would know for sure. Also, any tips/methods on how to make the nest itself? The grout I have is pre-mixed, sanded, pretty thick grout. Should I add a little water to make it more easy to work with and get in all the small crevices? Thanks so much in advance    

[Trythis22]

Welcome to the forums. This is a great community and I hope you continue to participate.

 

There's a little trick with grout that will make it absorb water immediately. To my knowledge, no one on the forums have mentioned this. If you sand grout (with sandpaper, not add sand to it) this will create a ready area for water to seep into the mould. I used 220 grit to avoid excessive damage, but even that fine a grit will work to open up the pores. Also, buy unsanded grout and mix with perlite. Ratios vary from person to person but I use 2:1:1 of unsanded grout, crushed perlite and water. You can buy perlite from any gardening or home improvement store. Make sure you crush it up into a fine power. Add 1/2 cup cold water, 1 cup grout, 1/2 cup perlite and mix thoroughly for 5 minutes (change measurements for how much you need). Let sit for 10, mix one more time and you're ready to pour. Allow 24 hours cure (12 will work but be careful if you're working with small pieces) before sanding areas you want the grout to absorb moisture with sandpaper. I wouldn't use too rough a grit as grout isn't the hardest of substances. 

 

Tips to make the nest is to create a mould for the grout to be poured into. You can create it out of cardboard, 2x4s, shoeboxes, etc. If you have a dremel tool you can carve it later with no problem, but if not I would be creative about your mould so that you save time later down the road. CrystalS uses a wooden frame with clay mould (upside down) to create the chambers. I used cardboard with a glass frame, because my formicarium is made of glass. It really doesn't matter.

 

If you have vinyl tubing, which you should because you're an ant keeper, I would stick it somewhere on your mould before you pour the grout. After the grout hardens, you can pull it out, drill holes in it, squeeze a sponge inside and that's your water source. You can have it going to a water tank underneath your mould or simply refill the top when the sponge looks like it's getting dry. 

 

In regards to humidity I've found that the greatest factor in achieving a proper gradient is space. For larger colonies this is not a problem, but for founding ones it is. A proper test tube setup will have 99% relative humidity at all meaningful temperatures. You should be able to create a gradient if you are able to place your single water source in one corner of your formicarium and there is at least 7" distance to the other corner. If you're thinking of dispersing saturation throughout the entire nest, forget about the gradient unless your formicarium is really large. 

 

I do not recommend sanded grout because that mix will create an impervious surface once hardened, like concrete. For your information pervious concrete exists; however the mix ratio does not include sand. But if you are able to figure out a way to get water to some parts of the nest then sanded grout will work great. There are lots of creative options available and remember that ants are designed to adapt and survive to a multitude of conditions so your final design doesn't have to be worth a million bucks. I hope I've answered some of your questions and feel free to ask more since other members of the forum will give you advice as well. 

 

Edit: I used WD-40 and paper towels to make the grout not stick to the mould, others use olive oil or other lubricants. If you don't care about your mould (essentially a one off mould) then the non-stick option doesn't matter. But you're going to have to clean it off later anyways so best to do it right the first time; not to mention you can re-use the mould to create more formicariums later in less time. Grout will not readily stick to vinyl tubing so a quick twist will free it. 

Edited by Trythis22, July 24 2018 - 4:36 PM.

[Antsinmycloset]

The formicarium I'm currently using I made following Crystal's picture frame with advanced hydration guide at 1:3 mix of crushed perlite and unsanded grout.

I did a pretty good job of making the hydration channels, for lack of a better term, in a Y capable of quickly hydrating the formicarium. If I could do it again, I wouldn't have. My Camponotus get really irritated at me when I add water and, without fail, evacuate the pupae for sometimes as long as a day. If this means dumping them in a corner of the outworld, so be it. The larvae/eggs are a little more hit and miss.

So yes, go ahead and make sure that you have an area that's nice and moist, but with this genus, I think having a nice and "dry" section is equally important. It sounds like you're already doing this, but I wanted to just emphasis it a little more.

And for the record, I only add maybe a ~2ml once a week to a 5x7x1.5 block of grout. While I sealed the bottom to prevent leakage, it certainly doesn't FEEL excessive.

Oh, fun tip? In an effort to make things look nicer, I "painted" some thinly mixed grout near the entrances. These patches seem to absorb easier, becoming a darker color than the surrounding grout. It makes for a very easy way to judge moisture..

[DaveJay]

Sanding a spot is a good tip, I found the grout I used does dry very shiny, almost looking like plastic so sanding the surface would certainly improve absorption.
WD-40 or similar seems a bit risky to me, surely it is toxic to most creatures? I would much rather use a vegetable based oil, at least they're edible.
I went a different way design wise, but I found cling wrap works to avoid sticking as long as a wrinkle/fold doesn't get stuck in the grout, maybe that could be useful.
Adding water to premixed grout can lead to cracking if it dries too fast, that's true of most plaster or cement based products, I know this from building, not from formiculture. Wetting tools, including hands helps though. The best way to ensure that all parts are filled and air bubbles removed is by jiggling but you can target potential problem areas by poking the area with a spoon handle or other tool and using a rapid vibrating movement to agitate the grout.

If you search the forum for "formicarium" quite a few threads come up that will give you plenty of ideas and tips, I look forward to see what you come up with!

Also, welcome to the forum!

[Enthusiastic_Callow]

Thanks everyone for your detailed answers and for welcoming me to the forum   So, I want to make a small formicarium, like maybe 3.5 inches by 3.5 inches outer diameter? As for what TryThis22 said about a moisture gradient and how a space minimum of at least 7 inches diagonally is needed for a moisture gradient to be established, I'm a little confused. I don't really think that the pretty long length of 7 inches is needed for that. I have seen many small nests with good moisture gradients and I think that humidity still changes a lot within such a small space as an inch. Also, camponotus are dry loving, so I won't be adding a lot of water anyways, so I don't think I need a really sophisticated method of humidifying the nest. But thanks anyways! Also, should I make the nest horizontal or vertical? If vertical, what side should I put the humidity chamber on? What about in horizontal nests? Also, is perlite entirely necessary? Is there anything that can substitute it? And last question,  . Could I just make a simple chamber in one corner or side of the nest separate from the rest of the nest without all that advanced stuff with cloths and Y shaped chambers and such? Because I won't be needing much moisture at all. For example, a 4 inch outer diameter horizontal nest and just in one corner or side a chamber seperate from where the ants live and walk with cotton or a sponge stuffed inside and I would sand/file the walls of the inside of the chamber so water can seep more easily. If I can't make a simple nest like this, does anyone have any ideas of other nests/nest designs for Camponotus pennsylvanicus that ARE simple? I don't exactly have the time, energy or money for a complicated nest with Y chambers and cloths inside the grout. Another way I could humidify the nest is with a water tower? So putting a small container under a part of the nest and super fine mesh on top so water can rise but ants can't get in/through. Any opinions on that? Sorry for all my questions and thanks again!   

[Trythis22]

If you want simple I can give you simple: Tupperware container with moist cotton ball in one corner. Since outer diameter is mentioned so many times, I assume you want a cylindrical nest. You can make one by pouring grout into a cylindrical tupperware container. You also want to save money and only want one nest, so I suggest you visit a glass shop to have them cut out a 1/8" thick piece of glass that's 4" in diameter because that'll be cheaper than investing in a circular glass cutter. Silicone is good for glass but you can save money by using hot glue. Scratch the moist cotton ball in one corner, here's a design for you. 

 

1. Mix grout, pour into cylindrical container of desired diameter. Make sure you have a way to separate the grout later. 

2. If you are carving the tunnels (which is EASY) skip this step. If not, make a mould you can remove later and bury it into the wet grout upside down. Also, bury two pieces of vinyl tubing per drawing below.

3. Allow the grout to harden before removal. I recommend 24 hours although if your method of removal isn't good enough you'll have to rip off the container. Or keep it on?

4. Attach glass cover. You can use silicone, hot glue, glass bolts or whatever means you want to do it. Hot glue is probably the cheapest option. 

5. Wet cotton ball in the watering tube or insert test tube setup. You are done. 

 

7" is not very long. It's about the length of your dad's hand. Ant keeping is not a very sophisticated hobby but as with all hobbies, people get into it. And there's nothing wrong with having fun with a hobby because that's the point of having hobbies. On the other hand, ants have the potential to be one of the most cost efficient pets. You can make a nest out of almost anything not ridiculous. Use your creativity, and remember it doesn't have to be perfect. Trust me, nobody on this forum has a perfect nest. The last idea about the small container under the nest sounds like a disaster waiting to happen though. The water will evaporate into the air and not into your grout nest because it's impervious. If you waved a magic wand and the water somehow saturated your nest, your humidity gradient is gone. So why go through the water tank when you could just have a small hole on the glass cover to pour water through? Remember that everything needs to work together or your design fails to accomplish what it was meant to do. Just keep it simple. 

 

A true vertical design will be more complicated than putting down a layer of cloth between pours of grout. If the latter seems like too much work, don't bother with a vertical nest. You can cheat by creating a horizontal nest and turning it sideways, which a lot of people seem to do and call it a vertical design. Problem solved?! 

 

Davejay, WD-40 will certainly drown ants if applied directly on them. As it is an aerosol spray the fumes are not healthy to ingest either. However, the residue will have evaporated and no trace remaining after the curing, sanding and washing that I did with my grout pieces. Chemical-phobia not backed by science is rampant on the internet but anyone with a degree in toxicology will tell you the dose makes the poison. Apples, salt or milk: Ingest enough of any of those and it will kill you. Water is also a chemical. 

 

Here's the design I made for you. It is very simple although you can add your own ideas to it if you want. 

 

[DaveJay]

Regarding WD-40 - Yes, I do have a phobia about non-naturally occurring chemicals, I am particularly sensitive to them, WD-40 and the like makes me sneeze, clogs my head and gives me a runny nose! I even use vegetable oil on hinges, tools etc.
I was wary of man made chemicals long before there even was an internet to give me false information!
Certainly dosage makes something poisonous, even water can be toxic in the right dose, but why risk using something like WD-40 when there are much safer alternatives? With animal husbandry I like to know what wasn't the problem, the less factors that might possibly cause harm the better.
If I stuck my hand into a fishtank without first scrubbing it meticulously with bi-carb soda then had fish die later I'd never be sure that it wasn't something on my hands that caused the problem, even if it was obvious that parasites or disease killed them. The same with using something toxic in making a grout formicarium, if I've eliminated all possible sources of contamination in making it and setting it up and had ants die off then I'd already have narrowed down the possible causes of the problem, I'd know with certainty that it wasn't remnants of WD-40, detergents etc so I'm already on the way to working out what happened by knowing what couldn't be the cause.
Also by the time I'd have washed and sanded to remove WD-40 to my satisfaction I'd have no grout left anyway!
I've been keeping animals of all sorts for more than 40 years and it's just how I work, I mean no negative reflections on your knowledge or what works for you.
I just think it's a potential source of contamination that can easily be avoided, if ants died off suddenly I'd never feel 100% sure that it wasn't because I failed to remove all the WD-40 or anything else potentially toxic I used in making the formicarium.

[Trythis22]

Of course Dave, I'm not here to force my opinions on anyone. The careful and methodological way you operate is certainly a big factor in all of your successes for the past 40 years and there is no way I would want to change that. It's just me as a person defending my claim as people are won't to do. Your reasoning will be more widely accepted and I have no problem with that. 

 

I understand where you are coming from in regards to risk mitigation. If anyone feels uncomfortable with using WD-40 they shouldn't use it; same with any material. However, I am going to stand by my claim that using WD-40 to separate grout pieces that will be cured, washed and sanded in a well ventilated area will not have any impact on ant health when used as formicarium material.

 

Grout is a man made chemical. So is glass, epoxy, ytong, acrylic, concrete, etc. All safe after curing for ants. The point I'm making is that people should not be turned off by the word, "chemical" because everything in the world is a chemical. The real power is properly understanding the cause and effect of how different chemicals interact with things under various circumstances. What I am propositioning is that evaporated and scrubbed WD-40 will no more harm ants than cured epoxy will because no "active ingredients" will remain due to the chemicals having been transmuted into harmless forms or otherwise. 

 

I'm sure that your personal experience and sensitivity to common chemicals have influenced your opinion on them. That's fine, and I'm very positive that almost all the readers who see this will be turned off to WD-40. This is because we as a society have become inundated with certain conceptions and come to associate the two words "chemical" and "poison" as synonymous. Here are some common myths regarding chemicals stemming from pop culture. 

 

- GMO foods poison you. There is no evidence available proving that GMO foods are harmful. GMOs have saved millions of lives by proving food to malnourished children in 3rd world countries who would have otherwise starved to death. Zero humans deaths caused by such a popular catchphrase to epitomize the dangers of "not natural." Bogus. 

- Flouride in tap water and common toothpastes will poison you. Again, the dose makes the poison. Do the research and the toxic dose of flouride to a human person cannot ever be reached before you die from other causes. 

- The black char from burned food will give you cancer because harmful chemicals. You'd have to die from overeating dozens of times over before your risk of cancer increases significantly. Look at the figures. 

- pH imbalances in your body will kill you. Yes, this is true. Blood must remain within 7.35 and 7.45 on a scale of 0-14 or you are at serious risk of death. The real clowns are the natural health experts who think they can cure all sorts of disease by regulating your body's pH balance by claiming all the chemicals we are exposed to destroy our "natural" health. Not true. There is never a pH "imbalance" in our body and if there was we'd be dead. It's just another attack on chemicals and a way to market their expensive sugar pills. And it works because the public has an abnormal fear of chemicals and schools don't teach proper critical thinking so our kids remain ignorant. Scientific literacy is dismal given the available technologies today where it's easier than ever to educate and spread knowledge.

 

Never thought I'd be talking about this stuff on an ant forum, but here we are. It's been a long time since I had to write about this subject so thanks for the opportunity. Without getting into a long winded post on critical thinking, I'll wrap up by saying if you have other alternatives you are comfortable with to separate grout easily from its mould, use it. When it comes to hobbies, do what works for you! A proper understanding of the tools and materials to be used will help, and it's wise to stick to your guns if you feel uncomfortable about using something you usually don't use often.

[Enderz]

Olive oil should work to stop the sticking, at least with my plastic test tubes it did.

[Enthusiastic_Callow]

Thank you all so much for your very detailed replies to my post asking about a grout nest for my Camponotus. So I need to make one in the next 3 days and just wanted to run everything I plan to do for it by you guys before I start:

(Also, I didn't want to make a circular nest, it seems harder in terms of getting/cutting the glass/acrylic, but thanks for trying to put yourself in my shoes    and I'm going to use perlite just in case, because I don't want to take any risks. Oh and I'm making a nest 4 by 4 inch outer dimensions and probably like 3.5 by 3.5 inner dimensions, so a 0.5 thick wall between chambers and outside of nest so the ants can't chew through, is this ok?)

 

1. Get a container slightly larger than the size I want

2. Get never-drying oil based modeling clay and put it on the bottom of the container into tunnel shapes I like (this will be the mold). Also put a small amount of      modeling clay into one side or corner separate from the tunnels, for the humidity chamber. (Should I sand/file down the inside of the humidity chamber              once the grout hardens? And how much space should there be between the humidity chamber and the tunnels? Like 1 cm? or more? And how big should        the humidity chamber be for this size nest and for this dry loving species I have? And finally, if I'm making a horizontal nest, what corner/side should I put          the chamber?)

3. Once I put the modeling clay down and its in shapes I like, I push some tubing down onto one of the modeling clay tunnel molds horizontally and I cover the      tubing's entrance (So I don't have to drill the grout in the future to make space for the tubing)

4. I use a paintbrush to cover everything in olive/sunflower oil, including the modeling clay, vinyl tubing, inside walls of container, etc...

5. I mix my grout. I'm going to use powdered (not pre-made) unsanded grout and mix it with water and crushed perlite (that I crushed by putting it into a plastic          ziploc bag and using a rolling pin to crush it. About how fine should it be?) until the grout mixture is a consistency of pancake batter.

6. I pour this mixture over my modeling clay mold and the vinyl tubing until it covers everything about by 1 cm over? or more?

7. I let it dry for like an hour

8. I get my pre-mixed sanded grout that I already have and is super thick and pour very slowly over my unsanded grout layer until another a 1 cm layer of it          comes up? or 2 cm layer?( this is from CrystalS 3 part series on how to make a grout nest, here is part one: https://www.youtube....  v=UDIJzYrMI7Q She does this sanded grout layer on top of the unsanded layer so that water doesn't escape and ants can't chew through the bottom.)

9. I let everything dry for 24 hours

10. I carefully get the nest out of the container and leave it to dry for another 12 hours

11. I put a cottonball into the hydration chamber (to enhance hydration and allow for a slower water seeping, so water doesn't come all at once)

12. I glue on acrylic (hot glue works?) that I cut before and then drill a hole over the humidity chamber (so I can fill it with water using syringe/eyedropper)

13. I let the whole thing dry/cure for a week, then I can give to ants

 

I have one concern; will the cotton ball in the humidity chamber mold? if it does I would like a way to remove it and replace it... How would I do that?

So does everything I said/what I plan to do seem reasonable or OK? And could u guys try to answer all the questions that I asked (probably numbering somewhere in the millions, lol    ). Sorry about all the questions, I just REALLY don't want this colony to die or do horribly. Thank you SO much!!!!

 

Edit: Oh I think trythis22 has already answered me in private message, but not sure. I'll check tommorrow ant let you all know, so you guys don't have to answer yet if you don't want to. Thanks though!

Yes trythis22 has kindly answered to my infinite questions, but thanks guys anyways if you were considering to reply!

Edited by Enthusiastic_Callow, July 29 2018 - 4:33 AM.

[StopSpazzing]

This post belongs here: http://www.formicult...al-ant-keeping/

[Enthusiastic_Callow]

Whoops. I thought "General" and "General ant keeping" were the same. I'm not sure how to move a post, but considering this was my very first post, I figure I won't get locked up forever  . Thanks for notifying me.