45 replies to this topic

[Trythis22]

There was a mistake with the first post: I said that if the cotton is too wet it's 99% RH everywhere. This is only true if there are no chambers. I went through one too many variations to properly keep track of in my head. I re-tested fully saturated cotton with the 3g salt behind it, fully saturated as well. Here are the results. 

 

- Wet salt, wet cotton, 3 chambers, closed off:

+ First chamber 99%

+ Second chamber 77%

+ Third chamber 70%

 

So this set of data needs to join the first one. The real question is, does the salt help at all? In theory it definitely works as a desiccant. My weekend just ran out so I'll have to do that testing another time. 

 

Hey Brian, 

 

Yeah they have a useful gradient. I'm gonna have to swallow my pride and declare that I was wrong about test tubes being too small for a useful humidity gradient. It's important to note that a standard test tube setup, however, has no chance for any gradient. That much is clear. 

 

Hmm, scattered sand grains by themselves do not absorb moisture well. Certainly better than nothing but it's probably there for aesthetic purposes. In regards to the salty water, check out this link: https://www.scienced...81027174636.htm. Since I've just dampened the salt and didn't actually mix into the water in this case very little salt if any will find its way to the water the ants will drink. However, I believe cotton will not filter brine so they will be receiving some salt with their water. As long as the concentration isn't too strong it'll be fine. This is actually another concept I've never seen mentioned here on Formiculture to my knowledge. 

 

Your method is actually more efficient than what I was thinking... Put to shame again but I'm gonna write what I was thinking anyway. I was going to pour a block of grout, take the test tubes to create the circular areas, let dry and now you have a mould to create as many "rings" as you need. Pour another block and press the tubes sideways to create the horizontal portions. You would then have moulds to create all the pieces you need for construction, sort of like having a money printing machine, pancake-style, but for formicariums. Attaching the pieces is easy and now you have as many removable pieces as you need. The removable part is a minor detail but important if you want to clean and fill up the water again because this design requires more refills than others. The Bamboo Nest has a tube on the other end from the get-go, but standard test tubes are not blown that way. A good thing is that transfers would be zero headache due to the fact that the nest will dry out fast. Attach another one to the outworld, let them move in, take out the old one clean and rinse and repeat. 

 

All of these blocks can be any size you want, but if you are making many it would help if you could pour 15-30 moulds at a time. This will minimize construction time drastically. 

 

Everyone, Brian's method is better than mine. If you want to go ahead and build this do it that way. The only reason you would do it my way is if you were creating dozens of these setups. Mine will be faster in the long run but only if you're making many. 

 

I can see exactly what you're imagining. It'll work. Not sure if I'm understanding the heating part correctly, but if you're running a heat cable alongside the tube, won't the heat be evenly distributed? You'd have to run it perpendicular, not parallel, for a heat gradient. Correct me if I'm wrong. 

 

EDIT: No, it's brilliant. You can refill by putting the straw back through the holes and re-watering. The pieces don't need to be removable. You can even use this setup for founding by pushing in pieces of sand and insect covered with honey through the tube, which would usually be blocked off. The major problem is refilling water while the ants are still inside. If you had a bigger formicarium like the square tubes you were talking about, it'd be possible to have a smaller, permanent straw inside a bigger straw that will be removed after the pours. Thus the smaller straw could carry water back to the salt or cotton on the other end while leaving enough room for the ants to travel back and forth between chambers. 

Edited by Trythis22, July 29 2018 - 10:48 PM.

[Trythis22]

So I'd like the input of other ant keepers who have been doing this longer than I have. I am getting close to the 2 months the original experiment (001) was designed to last (I am running more after this one so the testing won't stop). This is not enough data and I'm going to extend it 2-3 months for this specific experiment; however, there is still some crucial input I require for an accurate portrayal of the data I do have.

 

Many of the more meaningful graphs I am trying to create involve the health of the colonies as a whole, i.e. differently weighted numbers for different stages of development in brood. I am conflicted as to what exactly the ratios ought to be. Here are some basic sample graphs from the mess of formulas I'm making. I am by no means an expert at this and it is very messy. These are sample graphs taken from made up data for illustration purposes only. 

 

 

I think a better way is to just explain it in words. It's a very simple concept. Basically, I am adding a multiplier to egg, larvae, pupae and worker count. The workers are worth more and you can see that the multiplier for the workers is 5. I'm conflicted on what to assign eggs since I've noticed that even successful queens eat a lot of eggs, trophic or not, during their founding process. Are they worth more or less than 0.25? I've only shown graphs taken from one set of data, but already you can see some conflicts. Imagine the differences in portrayal when you add in 10 different colonies, all with their separate data sets and different start dates of testing. 

 

This is not a huge problem because whatever weight I choose to assign to each stage of development will be constant across all colonies. However, I want to get the ratios right so that data is more accurately portrayed. Essentially the question is: "Of what value is a(n) [insert stage of development] worth to the colony relative to the other stages of development?" 

 

If the answers can be given in this format it would be easy to compare:

 

Egg: 0.25

1st ins. L: 0.75

2nd ins. L: 1

3rd ins. L: 1.5

4th ins. L: 2

Pupae: 3

Worker: 5

 

Anyone is welcome to contribute their thoughts on what value an egg, larvae, pupa, etc. is worth to the colony. Thank you in advance for your contribution. 

 

I've also realized the need to properly document the different stages of larvae instars as that will allow me to paint a more accurate picture of what's going on for very minimal effort. The second stage of testing will incorporate the counting of multiple instars of larvae. 

 

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In other news I've been thinking about the salt in the test tubes during my trip - when I came back I realized there was already a product widely available for the average consumer that performs the exact same functions: Sodium Polyacrylate balls, i.e. water balls or water gels. If utilized, these would solve all flooding, drowning and some mold problems in formicariums. They are completely non-toxic and safe. They allow for creative control over humidity gradients and watering applications. You can buy 50,000 of the balls for 7 dollars on amazon. It's normally used for spas and kids' toys, but has anyone used these for ants before? 

[brianhershey]

Hey Brian, 

 

Yeah they have a useful gradient. I'm gonna have to swallow my pride and declare that I was wrong about test tubes being too small for a useful humidity gradient. It's important to note that a standard test tube setup, however, has no chance for any gradient. That much is clear. 

 

EDIT: You can refill by putting the straw back through the holes and re-watering.

 

The parts are surely not removable, and I think you missed the method for watering... there's a capped tube at the end where you simply uncap and syringe water in. Perhaps you were talking about doing the "bamboo" style with a standard tube setup where you can refill with a small straw that runs the length of the tube?  If so that's a great idea!

[brianhershey]

Not sure if I'm understanding the heating part correctly, but if you're running a heat cable alongside the tube, won't the heat be evenly distributed? You'd have to run it perpendicular, not parallel, for a heat gradient. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

 

It doesn't have to be perfectly perpendicular so you would have it warmer where it is close and cooler where it is far away. I was thinking the side of the tube closest to the heating cable would be warmer than the other side, but maybe the distance is too short to matter, IDK.

[brianhershey]

Essentially the question is: "Of what value is a(n) [insert stage of development] worth to the colony relative to the other stages of development?" 

 

 

I see this from a different angle. Feel free to rephrase and correct my assumptions with your specific goals in mind. Let's assume the ultimate measure of success is the number of workers and the growth rate of that number for each colony. The ratio of importance assigned to each input variable should be assigned AFTER the study, not before. In other words, once you gather all the data you run a regression analysis with all the brood stage, temp and humidity data and the results will inform you which were the most important to that colony's growth rates. Then you can do the same thing across multiple colonies of the same species to find out the correlations. If correlations exist then you can draw conclusions for that entire species.

[Trythis22]

Hope you've been well Brian, as always your inputs are greatly appreciated. Point by point.

 

1. The refilling part I was assuming we do this with standard test tubes without the capped tube at the other end. If there is a capped tube, that'll be much simpler but I was having trouble finding out how to buy them. It'd be a mess to try and drill a hole on a curved glass surface. Yeah I'd be a lunatic if I were to suggest the straw if there's already an easy way to refill the water haha. 

 

2. Yup you guessed right, it's all about the distance when it comes to heat. Glass does trap heat more or less, so it'd be much easier to create a wider gradient top to bottom than side to side (we are talking 1" versus 5-6" distance in a standard 32mm test tube). The most important thing is that it all depends on what you're trying to do, so I may have projected my own ideas over on to you. Sorry, it's a bad habit. 

 

3. I haven't thought about it like that. Thank you so much for this, you hit the nail on the head. I'm sorely inexperienced in this area since it's not my line of work so I appreciate the pointers. I don't have humidity data right now since they are all in test tubes, but will definitely incorporate that once the colonies are large enough to move out to more specialized formicariums. If only there was a way to slap a sticker on to every individual egg to see how fast it develops or gets eaten, that'd be some very strong data. I'll send you over some docs once the first phase is complete.