45 replies to this topic

[DaveJay]

I hope you didn't think I was being negative, I had just seen humidity mentioned several times and wondered how you might get around the fact that humidity being temperature dependant to get a more accurate result. Unfortunately I couldn't come up with an answer but I thought I'd better point out the problem, not because I thought you didn't know how humidity works but because in our enthusiasm we can sometimes overlook the most basic things.
I think probably the best you'll be able conclude after these experiments is "at 'X' degrees species 'Y' prefers a humidity of 'Z' percent" or similar unless you conduct experiments where temperature is constant with humidity as the variable and visa versa.
Maybe now it's been pointed out others may come up with a solution.
Mind you, it would be very interesting if different humidity levels were preferred at different temperatures though.

Edited by DaveJay, July 11 2018 - 1:21 AM.

[Trythis22]

No, you weren't being negative at all. You were very helpful - the inspiration for this entry came from your comment: http://www.formicult...ack/#entry97179

 

Brian actually brought up humidity earlier in the conversation and I dismissed it on grounds that humidity inside the test tubes cannot be controlled ("humidity inside the tube is what it is"). But when you brought it up again I realized the importance of building something to control humidity quickly. These ants are going to complete their first round of testing soon - and I'm going to need time for epoxy/grout/silicone/etc. to cure completely. I would love to have your feedback on some of the ideas I'm bouncing back and forth with Brian in that design thread. You've also inspired me to think more deeply on test tube setup alternatives and on the idea of controlling humidity as a variable in a separate study as opposed to simultaneously measuring with temperature.

 

The thing is, ant brood at different stages of development may require different levels of humidity and temperature for optimal performance. That's where it gets interesting. By varying humidity and temperatures at different parts of the nest, we'll be able to see where the colony prefers to place their eggs, 2nd instar larvae, pupa, etc. I think that we will see different preferences during different stages of development in brood for this species. 

[Trythis22]

Hi guys, shocking news. Or, not shocking at all. Humidity inside a test tube setup result in 99% RH at ALL meaningful temperatures. Test tubes are too small to offer any control over humidity. That being said, I can't help but wonder: Is the humidity gradient a myth? After all, if you water one part of a formicarium, the saturation in the air will spread equally inside the space because that's what molecules like to do. If your formicarium is big enough... but we're talking about cubic meters, not cubic centimeters. In my personal opinion, keeping humidity at 99% allows us to focus on other variables. Attached is a picture of what I had to do to my humidity probe (the casing was too big so I placed it inside a pipette I got with my first ant a month ago). 

 

EDIT: Humidity inside my room measured at 51%-55% during the recordings. 

 

 

I thought this was important to bring up. The experiment on temperatures and brood development continues per plan and you can follow updates on the first post on the first page. I don't think I'll be posting any new comments regarding this topic unless someone else does until this experiment is over and it's time for a final analysis on the first batch. Thanks for reading and all your helpful comments. 

Edited by Trythis22, July 16 2018 - 11:14 PM.

[CoolColJ]

chambers with small entrances do control humidity, at least I've noticed it in test tubes with cotton chamber setups.

if condensation builds up it does not necessarily spread to nearby chambers.

 

I recently kept some ants in a small container with a wet cotton ball as hydration on one end.

Humidity was 80% on the opposite side, while near the cotton should be 99% - so there was a gradient

[Trythis22]

Oh! That's great news! Thank you for letting me know. 

 

Is it possible for you to post a picture of that container or link me to the post where you have it so I could learn from the setup?

 

Do you also have humidity readings for the area immediately outside of that container?

Edited by Trythis22, July 16 2018 - 11:18 PM.

[CoolColJ]

Oh! That's great news! Thank you for letting me know. 

 

Is it possible for you to post a picture of that container or link me to the post where you have it so I could learn from the setup?

 

Do you also have humidity readings for the area immediately outside of that container?

 

 

nothing special just a tupperware style container with a grommet with water damed test tube

wet cotton at the bottom left of this pic

 

 

You can see the cotton placement in this pic

 

 

Lid was shut, and it has only a few pin holes in the centre of the lid.

Room humidity was around 40%

[Trythis22]

I see. This is good stuff, thank you for sharing. I stand corrected although it seems I'll have to wait until the test colonies get larger before I can establish any meaningful humidity gradients? The 15-20 cubic centimeters inside a test tube setup is simply too small an area to do what you have done in the first picture. 

 

It seems that the species of ant in your second picture prefer lower levels of RH seeing that they moved out of the test tube, so not all ant species perform at maximum efficiency at 99% RH all the time. It sounds like an obvious statement but it's an important observation. I would love to continue receiving feedback from you on future updates and on other posts as well. Thanks. 

[CoolColJ]

I see. This is good stuff, thank you for sharing. I stand corrected although it seems I'll have to wait until the test colonies get larger before I can establish any meaningful humidity gradients? The 15-20 cubic centimeters inside a test tube setup is simply too small an area to do what you have done in the first picture. 
 
It seems that the species of ant in your second picture prefer lower levels of RH seeing that they moved out of the test tube, so not all ant species perform at maximum efficiency at 99% RH all the time. It sounds like an obvious statement but it's an important observation. I would love to continue receiving feedback from you on future updates and on other posts as well. Thanks.

The ants were a small Polyrhachis vermiculosa colony
They never used the test tube, I didn't give them access until way later, by adding a tooth pick ramp up to it.

Instead they eventually grouped around the wet cotton, including all their brood.
And some of the ants themselves sat on the cotton itself.
So they did like humidity.


I have another colony of Polyrhachis femorata.
And these hate high humidity.
It makes sense as they were nesting in a tree/bark



When I moved them into a Mini hearth nest, they sat in the corner opposite the Water pool.
Most ants would have the queen and brood be on the water pool itself

Edited by CoolColJ, July 17 2018 - 4:04 PM.

[CoolColJ]

Did more humidity measuring in my Chinese bamboo nest

 

 

 

45% RH

I got 55+ % in the outer chamber, 69% in the middle one,  78% in the inner chamber.

 

The water lasts forever in this one, I haven't filled it up in 2 months, and it's only dropped 3 mm

It's a dryer nest than most.

This one also never had condensation issues, unlike the other Bamboo nest i have. Showing how efficient it is I guess

[brianhershey]

Did more humidity measuring in my Chinese bamboo nest

 

I got 55+ % in the outer chamber, 69% in the middle one,  78% in the inner chamber.

 

The water lasts forever in this one, I haven't filled it up in 2 months, and it's only dropped 3 mm

It's a dryer nest than most.

This one also never had condensation issues, unlike the other Bamboo nest i have. Showing how efficient it is I guess

That looks like plaster or grout, not bamboo?

[CoolColJ]

 

Did more humidity measuring in my Chinese bamboo nest

 

I got 55+ % in the outer chamber, 69% in the middle one,  78% in the inner chamber.

 

The water lasts forever in this one, I haven't filled it up in 2 months, and it's only dropped 3 mm

It's a dryer nest than most.

This one also never had condensation issues, unlike the other Bamboo nest i have. Showing how efficient it is I guess

That looks like plaster or grout, not bamboo?

 

 

 

gypsum most likely, Bamboo is just a nickname, or Chinese translated name

Edited by CoolColJ, July 28 2018 - 6:28 PM.

[AntsAreUs]

The ultimate question I want to answer is: How large can ant colonies in captivity become? I'm thinking 100,000+.

This is something I'm currently testing with more unobtrusive ants that no one really keeps or has much of any information on. Most ants I have in mind are the subterranean ants that are seemingly not worth keeping in captivity. Currently I'm understanding how they work and how possible it is to keep them (keep in mind they are very possible). The end goal is to figure out how big a colony of these can get to in captivity. From what I've researched,  their specialized diet really limits their colony growth in the wild. In my opinion, it is far more impressive to keep a colony of Strumigenys for example than a colony of Camponotus for many years. I'm not sure if anyone disagrees but I would like to hear why if so.

[CoolColJ]

Tested this one

Even when dry just about, it read 60%, 67, 70% in the 3 chambers, from outer to inner, with a room humidity of 45%

So even an enclosed area will boost humidity by itself

After I added water to soak the sand, but not so much there is access water at the top once it's soaked into the first chamber -

it reads 99%

I can see the water has soaked to 75% of the first chamber.

Based on the first time it takes a day before it reaches the second chamber - which currently reads 80%

Outer chamber reads 70%

 

--

tip

place the probe through a small piece of vinyl tubing, but the having the probe head exposed, and place a barbecue skewer into the vinyl tubing piece.

I use the bamboo skewers which are thicker and wedge into the tubing more securely.

Then you can place it into the chambers a lot easier []

[dermy]

 

The ultimate question I want to answer is: How large can ant colonies in captivity become? I'm thinking 100,000+.

Legend says Antscanada's Fire Ant Colony (Solenopsis geminata) is at Over 1 Million ants. But I doubt that.

 

According to Wikipedia [such an awesome source I know, I remember you'd get a F on something if you sourced only wikipedia in school]

https://en.wikipedia...wiki/Ant_colony

"Formica yessensis has colony sizes that are reported to be 306 million workers"

[Trythis22]

This reply is a day late, I was trying to feed the colonies in experiment 04 for the first time but the supplier decided to use different size glass tubes this time so I had to grind the feeding trays down to fit inside. After I tried so hard to measure out 14mg of honey I had to wipe it all off and start over..!

 

CoolColJ,

 

That’s an interesting nest you have there. That is a very dry nest. Is that a salt solution on the left? Diluting water with sodium chloride or magnesium nitrate will reduce relative humidity, thereby reducing the dew point that will prevent condensation. Well actually reduce evaporate rate but the result is the same. Does the manufacturer specify what everything is made of? I can understand the 55-78% RH gradient given the fact that one end is not 99% like you would find in a standard test tube setup. It would make me happy if you could take a picture with the black top taken off. Do you just saturate the white solution and it works for watering the nest? How much water do you put in to the reservoir? Is the shiny white substrate littering the bottom and walls of the gypsum salt or sand? 

 

Currently it is winter in Australia – low humidity and low temperatures [as a person living in a place that reaches freezing temperatures regularly in the winter it seems odd to say this]. There is very little ventilation, but it is still more than what a cotton ball would provide. Is it wrong for me to come to the conclusion that humidity inside small enclosed areas depend on the amount of actual moisture available and the RH of the immediate surrounding area? In other words it seems that the design for that formicarium does not even begin to require a fraction of the volume of water a standard test tube setup would need. Then it distributes and slows down the evaporation rate sideways to make for a dry nest. If you were to completely saturate the sand I am sure you would get 99% RH readings across the board?

 

If your RH is 60% and temperature is 70 degrees F (21.1 C), dew point is 55 F (12.7 C). Of course there is no condensation. 

 

I can’t do the barbeque skewer thing you did because my formicarium has alternating openings per floor. Had to cut the pipette housing to make it fit. A larger formicarium or simpler design would certainly make testing easier. I need to change a bunch of things with this one. See picture:

 

AntsAreUs,

 

Good to have you on board. So you hypothesize that captive conditions for that particular species would allow for a higher growth ceiling due to the benefits of a more varied and available diet? That’s interesting and certainly possible. My colonies might need a bit more time to catch up to your colonies but maybe collaboration in the future is possible? I am standardizing my experimenting methods so it would be easy for anyone to contribute.

 

In regards to exotic species pride and jealousy, I couldn’t care less. This is my opinion. I mean, I’m probably just going to end up with 30 Tetramorium Immigrans colonies and as many other species as I can get my hands on, which probably won’t be very many. I think ants are interesting enough as they are and getting a deeper look into one species rather than knowing a little about many colonies is more attractive to me. I can definitely see the appeal of having experience with many different species though! Different strokes for different people. 

 

For example, the official Tetramorium Immigrans colony care sheet on the forums now has incomplete information at best. People are going to read that and follow the information on there to a T. Less than 1 month of proper testing already disrupts accepted standards. The recommended temperature is off by more than 10 degrees and humidity is off by 50%. Growth rate does not display a range so the numbers are inaccurate. A lot of figures on the forums here are anecdotal so I guess I’m doing my part to remedy the lack of solid facts, so I have a purpose of doing such a specialized study. 

 

Hello dermy.

 

That colony is crazy right? I haven’t seen his recent videos but I’d think it’s easily over 100,000 ants. But to be honest that tank is not large enough to house a million ants unless he moved them over to a larger tank recently? His aquarium is approx. 48” x 24” x 16”, not to mention a little less than half of it is water. Soil is maybe 7” deep? So that gives us about 4000 cubic inches for living space. If we assume 50 ants per cubic inch the max capacity of that tank is 200,000 ants. By the way, 50 ants in a cubic inch means frigging overpopulation. If his ants are very small, maybe 100 ants a cubic inch? That’s still only 400,000 max capacity. I should probably watch one of his videos because my figures are based off memory, but if anyone wants to double check feel free to do so. I don’t think that tank can hold a million ants. 

 

Wild colonies and super colonies are definitely impressive, especially that one in Japan. I’m not going to try to even get to that figure. Just trying to see how far I can take this and give back some data to the ant keeping community while I’m at it. 

 

I’m going to ask again for anyone reading this if they have recommendations for diet. I’m willing to test almost anything since I can standardize the diet for all the samples so that variable will stay constant. Right now it’s just honey and wingless fruit flies (Drosophila Melanogaster). All my mealworms have turned into beetles and the eggs still haven’t hatched - thinking of boiling and cutting up the beetles with a scapel so they’ll be able to get inside. Good idea? 

[dermy]

I'm not too sure on Antscanada's fire ant colony, I just know it's definitely not at 1 Million ants and probably never will be, there's always a limit on how large something can grow and unless you are dumping truckloads of feeders and other food in there with maximum space you aren't gonna get 1 Million Fire Ants.

 

 

thinking of boiling and cutting up the beetles with a scapel so they’ll be able to get inside. Good idea?

Honestly it's not worth it, beetles have nothing nutritional really inside them, it'd just be a waste of beetles. Make sure you don't throw away any frass from the mealworms, it will eventually hatch into baby mealworms and you'll have more than you know what to do with!

[CoolColJ]

CoolColJ,
 

That’s an interesting nest you have there. That is a very dry nest. Is that a salt solution on the left? Diluting water with sodium chloride or magnesium nitrate will reduce relative humidity, thereby reducing the dew point that will prevent condensation. Well actually reduce evaporate rate but the result is the same. Does the manufacturer specify what everything is made of? I can understand the 55-78% RH gradient given the fact that one end is not 99% like you would find in a standard test tube setup. It would make me happy if you could take a picture with the black top taken off. Do you just saturate the white solution and it works for watering the nest? How much water do you put in to the reservoir? Is the shiny white substrate littering the bottom and walls of the gypsum salt or sand? 

Currently it is winter in Australia – low humidity and low temperatures [as a person living in a place that reaches freezing temperatures regularly in the winter it seems odd to say this]. There is very little ventilation, but it is still more than what a cotton ball would provide. Is it wrong for me to come to the conclusion that humidity inside small enclosed areas depend on the amount of actual moisture available and the RH of the immediate surrounding area? In other words it seems that the design for that formicarium does not even begin to require a fraction of the volume of water a standard test tube setup would need. Then it distributes and slows down the evaporation rate sideways to make for a dry nest. If you were to completely saturate the sand I am sure you would get 99% RH readings across the board?

If your RH is 60% and temperature is 70 degrees F (21.1 C), dew point is 55 F (12.7 C). Of course there is no condensation. 

I can’t do the barbeque skewer thing you did because my formicarium has alternating openings per floor. Had to cut the pipette housing to make it fit. A larger formicarium or simpler design would certainly make testing easier. I need to change a bunch of things with this one. See picture:

closer pic, click to enlarge


I have no idea what it is made of, but I suspect gypsum.
It is a large nest at 30mm x 200mm

The substrate on the chamber walls looks crystal like, they reflect and refract light.

The white substrate in the water chamber looks and feels sand like, but more pure. It doesn't dissolve.
I have filled the water so that it has saturated the chamber, substrate, soaked into the nest, and then filled so there is excess standing water ontop the substrate in the water chamber.
This standing water has only dropped 2-3mm in the last 2 months!
So the readings I provided were after 2 months in this state already.



So no 99% RH here even with full saturation and I did see the water soak into the nest chambers, the colour changed.
The walls are much thicker than the red nest, which already has condensation forming this morning in the the two inner chambers.... and 99% RH in these.
I also had standing water in the red nests' water chamber, and it soaked in eventually, but the nest stay hydrated with excess water condensation for weeks on end, it never dried out!

Edited by CoolColJ, July 29 2018 - 4:13 PM.

[Trythis22]

dermy, 

 

Thanks for letting me know about the darkling beetles. I had no idea what their nutritional content was. A question I hope to answer in the future is: Ants require space to expand, but do they do better with certain designs and substrates than others? Diet variety is also going to play a part. Both of those are going to be complicated but at least I just have to focus on temperature for now. 

 

CoolColJ,

 

Yeah you got about 8 inches of tube there, minus the water reservoir area. A bit bigger than mine but no problem. I've been busy at work, my friend. I had thought for a moment one of our meters were broken but I was able to replicate your conditions so you're not crazy. Or is it the other way around? 

 

 

56% RH in my room, 65% inside the tube at all areas. There's about 7 grams of sodium chloride backed with a cotton ball (if you think it's a dangerous chemical NaCl is table salt). It does go to 64% near the end of the tube but that's statistically insignificant. Everything is dry. For comparison, in an empty and dry tube that's closed off, RH is 80%. 

 

I dropped about 2mL in about 3 grams of sodium chloride. Results are still 65%, probably due there being too much cotton. I ripped off about 80% of the cotton. 

 

Finally success with the thinner cotton and addition of extra chambers. I'm able to replicate your setup. The first chamber is 96%, second chamber is 66%, third chamber is 59%. 

 

 

To recap:

 

- Room RH is 56%.

- Tube: empty, closed off is 80%-78%.

- Tube: dry salt, closed off is 65%-64%.

- Tube with wet salt plus moist cotton backing:

+ First chamber 96%

+ Second chamber 66%

+ Third chamber 59%

- Tube with wet salt and wet cotton is 99% no matter what. 

 

If you pour a layer of substrate and replace the cotton with a material such as grout or plaster, I can see how hydration would work in these. Those clever Chinese..! Also after taking a closer look at the thickness of the walls, the wicking action is going to be slow. However, the real secret of your nest and its humidity gradient is the minimal amount of watering it requires. Whatever substrate that is, whether it includes sodium/magnesium/etc., it does not have a huge water tank. In fact, as you've mentioned if you saturate everything in the red nest, it is 99% RH throughout. Same with mine: If I used too much water, it was 99% everywhere. Your examples have been a great resource for learning and I'll be sure to apply these concepts to future formicarium designs. 

 

I'll be testing a brine solution next week once I have time. It's going to be easy to make a grout mold to replicate that Bamboo Nest design too. Looks like my work's been cut out for me. We're doing revolutionary work here gentlemen. Finally, the standard test tube setup will change to include salt for species that require a drier environment (or something like that). 

[brianhershey]

Finally success with the thinner cotton and addition of extra chambers. I'm able to replicate your setup. The first chamber is 96%, second chamber is 66%, third chamber is 59%. 

 

Those clever Chinese..!

 

Ha! I love that you duplicated the results in this 3 chamber tube design and they have a useful gradient! I assume the substrate is simply white silica sand... none of the ads for these nests say anything about other additives (sodium, etc.). Would that even be healthy to ants, to introduce salt into their water supply?

[brianhershey]

It's going to be easy to make a grout mold to replicate that Bamboo Nest design too.

 

I agree, I think I figured it out as well. Let me know if this is what you were thinking.

 

- put tube vertical, put sand in tube for the water chamber and pour an inch of grout on top of it, dry until firm

- put tube horizontal and pour the floor, dry until firm

- put vertical, place a straw lightly coated with oil in tube and keep it centered, rest on the bottom, pour sand around the straw in the space to create the chamber nearest the water chamber

- pour the first chamber divider, dry until firm

- pour sand in the space to create the middle chamber

- pour the 2nd chamber divider, dry until firm

- pour sand in the space to create the end chamber

- pour the last divider at the top of the tube, dry until firm

- let dry, pull the straw out, shake out all the sand, done!

 

I was thinking of trying this with square acrylic tubes

 

For heat, think of a heat cable running lengthwise in between every two of these tubes, maybe 1/2" away, or however far away to get a good heat gradient from one side to the other. I picture a tray of these like that.

Edited by brianhershey, July 29 2018 - 9:25 PM.