81 replies to this topic

[InsideAntz]

Drtrmiller did make sense... it comes down to "responsible anting" but this is a very small part of the big picture.

 

We impact our ecosystem and part of the planet with our CO2 emissions (ranked worst of any country) water pollution (ranked 2nd worst of any country) and marine capture (ranked 3rd worst of any country).

 

Ant trading has gone on for decades in other countries and they seem to be doing just fine with it.

 

 

Great game on right now "Oregon vs Ohio State" about time college football let them play a championship game and not ANOTHER bowl game...

[LAnt]

China produces almost twice as much CO2 than America.

[Diffeomorphismus]

Hello,

 

Here you see the problem we often have in German forums: Colophonius posted a nice article to explain how we keep ants in Germany, Austria an Switzerland. But then people like Teleutotje comes around to cause trouble. That's very sad because we only want to talk about keeping ants. So in most German forums the teams don't accept discussions like this one here anymore.

 

The question is: When people like Teleutotje want to change European laws, why do they troll in forums instead of becoming active in politics? You will see that they're not able to discuss seriously because they think they're always right.

[Miles]

Please don't start anything like what you have suggested happens on the German forums. Accusing Teleutotje of those things gets us nowhere, and he has valid points. Respect is necessary. 

 

Simply disagree with him. He has hardly "trolled" these forums. Politics is a nasty game to many (I enjoy it quite a bit), and most scientists don't have the patience.

Edited by Miles, January 12 2015 - 10:14 PM.

[Diffeomorphismus]

I think the intention of Colophonius to start this topic was to point out the differences between keeping ants in Europe (especially Germany, Austria and Switzerland) and the US. Why starting discussions that not really belongs to this topic? That has nothing to do with respect to Colophonius who started this topic. If someone wants to discuss about European laws this person should start a separate thread. That's my opinion of respect. Also it is very hard to give respect to persons that don't respect me. 

 

All in all it disappoints me that people transport old personal conflicts from German forums to this forum and this topic. That's why I crtiticize Teleutotje.

[Mercutia]

We here on this forum will not restrict users from talking about the ant trade especially if it is legal in their country however we also will not restrict discussion on it either. It is important for viewers of this forum to understand and see there are many opinions to this discussion so they can make up their own minds about the validity of all the points brought to the table. We will not do any "silencing" here as long as everyone maintains an air of civility in discussing these topics.

 

Frankly Diffeomorphismus, Teleutotje is entitled to voicing his opinions on the subject. It would be wrong of us to try to silence him, much in the same way it would be wrong of us to silence you from talking about the exotic ant trade.

 

EDIT: If Colo doesn't mind, I will let the discussion continue on this thread. If he wishes his thread to not be further derailed by the discussion of the exotic ant trade, I will split this topic.

[Colophonius]

Well, I don't mind if you continue discussing the topic. 

I guess it's a brilliant example why I hestiated to write about German ant community.

 

 

. At first, I wanted to avoid the topic, because there are often problems arising within the community, when someone voices critism.

. 

 

 

 

I just have to agree with drtmiller:

 

 

I don't even have to read all the replies to say that this discussion should not devolve into a debate between differences of opinion regarding ant trade. That was not the intention of the reasonably objective first post.

The OP posted here to state a few facts and observations, having spent time in both German and North American forums.

 

This thread was not meant to be a discussion or debate about anything, much less the merits of regulating or deregulating ant trade.  Such a discussion, in light of the very clear laws we have in place within the US, would be pointless.

 

 

 

Just one more thing, Teleutotje:
You probably read Merkur's ideas about my post in ameisenportal.eu (http://ameisenportal...c887e00a#p5751). For all those of you who don't understand German (google translator won't help you, I was told) here is a quick translation:

 

 

 

Recently I had raised awareness for the new American forum www.formiculture.com. Meanwhile I am a bit disappointed (I myself am only reading, but never posting). Owner "dspdrew" seems to mainly use the forum in order to advertise his ant keeping equipment. Beside that, the content does not differ a lot from German and French forums. 

 

One user of German forums however is now carrying resentments against me into this American forum:

http://www.formicult... ... t-keeping/ 

 

"

One of the major participants of those discussions even claims that he is bullied and hunted by a "mob of people" that try to silence him"

 

Nobody of those currently leading the discussions seem to care that this is only a try to scare away the last professional myrmecologist from German forums. Just take a look at the discussion at the formiculture-forum!

 

Just for your information!

 

 

I don't really want to comment on this, I guess it's quite clear that something went horribly wrong. According to his statement I am currently trying to scare him away from German forums by posting threads that aim to talk about ant keeping in American forums. 

 

Just for your information:
The reason why I wrote a neutral article was not that I am not capable of using judgemental adjectives. I just wanted to avoid such an escalation of the discussion. 

 

Cheers,

Colophonius

Edited by Colophonius, January 12 2015 - 11:45 PM.

[Servercheck]

Just giving my thoughts on this matter.

 

To me, I don't mind people buying non-native ants from legal suppliers as long as they are responsible and never release or let them escape. I think the problem here are the ones who aren't responsible enough to keep these ants, which ends up causing the 'ecological damage' scientist are trying to avoid through the restriction of ant trade. 

 

On another note, as an ant keeper living in Malaysia, with all these so-called 'exotic' species of ants, I can't really understand the need for people to keep non-native ants... I'd like to keep Lasius niger or honey pot ants as well, but I'm not desperate to the point of forking out money to buy them from overseas, why aren't they satisfied with what they have? They have their species of ants and we have our species to keep. Look for more once you actually studied/kept all native ants. From what I know, there are plenty of unidentified species out there.

 

As a neutral party, I find this forum more likable. From what I've seen, they mostly make do with what they have and try to figure out more about their native ant species rather than wanting to 'look cool' having 'exotic' ants. 

[drtrmiller]

This discussion serves no purpose but to make the participants look like fools in a stalemate of chess, unable to see that neither side will win, no matter how many times they move back and forth, or what board they choose to play on.

The next person who parrots back one more case for or against ant trade is a coward who can't admit that there are valid points on both sides of this unwinnable argument.

Edited by drtrmiller, January 13 2015 - 4:54 AM.

[dspdrew]

Owner "dspdrew" seems to mainly use the forum in order to advertise his ant keeping equipment.

 

[Mercutia]

 

Owner "dspdrew" seems to mainly use the forum in order to advertise his ant keeping equipment.

 

 

LOL, do you think this was translated right? Maybe they meant exhibit?

[Barristan]

Reklame means advertisement.

[Mercutia]

Reklame means advertisement.

Well considering he doesn't sell anything, I thought it was possible it was mistranslated. Perhaps this Merkur character interpreted the threads wrong. Drew just engineers these setups and posts them for people to make themselves using his methods. He doesn't sell them. At least not yet.

[Barristan]

 Perhaps this Merkur character interpreted the threads wrong

 

 

Probably. Since he also reads this thread maybe he can correct his mistake... I think it is not good for a forum's reputation if someone spreads such wrong statements.

Edited by Barristan, January 13 2015 - 2:18 AM.

[Colophonius]

On another note, as an ant keeper living in Malaysia, with all these so-called 'exotic' species of ants, I can't really understand the need for people to keep non-native ants... I'd like to keep Lasius niger or honey pot ants as well, but I'm not desperate to the point of forking out money to buy them from overseas, why aren't they satisfied with what they have? They have their species of ants and we have our species to keep. Look for more once you actually studied/kept all native ants. From what I know, there are plenty of unidentified species out there.

 

As a neutral party, I find this forum more likable. From what I've seen, they mostly make do with what they have and try to figure out more about their native ant species rather than wanting to 'look cool' having 'exotic' ants.

 

It''s quite simple: while German ants are very interesting (there aren't that many species, though), they all got one major problem: 
They need winter rest for almost half a year. So while you do your very best to have an interesting formicarium, you have to lock all your ants away for a long time, which is at least annoying. 

Edited by Colophonius, January 13 2015 - 6:14 AM.

[dean_k]

Half a year?

 

Isn't Canada colder than Germany in general? I caught a Lasius queen that needed only 2 months of hibernation in a fridge before starting to lay eggs. And I have a Myrmica colony that woke up after only 2 weeks in a fridge.

 

We even have a member from Albeta, Canada here and her colonies don't sleep that much.

Edited by dean_k, January 13 2015 - 6:59 AM.

[Colophonius]

Winter's rest is recommended to take place from october until at least march.

[benjiwuf]

it's roughly the same for us in the northern U.S., as well as Canada. however they can come out of diapause if the colony cooperates. also, Germany is the same latitude as Quebec. so northern Canada is in fact colder yes.

[dspdrew]

 

Reklame means advertisement.

Well considering he doesn't sell anything, I thought it was possible it was mistranslated. Perhaps this Merkur character interpreted the threads wrong. Drew just engineers these setups and posts them for people to make themselves using his methods. He doesn't sell them. At least not yet.

 

Actually I sell ants in the "Market Place" subforum along with a few other members, but I don't think they would be considered accessories.

 

Isn't Canada older than Germany in general?

Say what?

[Mercutia]

It''s quite simple: while German ants are very interesting (there aren't that many species, though), they all got one major problem: 
They need winter rest for almost half a year. So while you do your very best to have an interesting formicarium, you have to lock all your ants away for a long time, which is at least annoying. 

 

 

I can't imagine Germany gets colder than Canada. Our winters may be very similar. Even still, I imagine most keepers have multiple colonies under their care. What is a possible alternative is reversing one colony's hibernation cycle. This has been done before by members in this forum. So you have one colony in hibernation, while the other colony is out for viewing and caring pleasure.

 

While the recommended hibernation cycle is say 6 months, you can get away with two to three months without any ill effects.