64 replies to this topic

[nurbs]

As some of you know, I have lots of colonies. Most are housed in self-made formicariums, but a good number are also in Tarheel Ants formicariums. Last year, a handful of THA Type II formicariums turned out to be harmful to varying species of ants. I made posts about them here:

 

http://www.formicult...stions/?p=79532

http://www.formicult...stions/?p=79688

 

The owner of Tarheel Ants, Mack Pridgen, contacted me at the beginning of the new year regarding these issues. We confirmed the incidents with the nests were not just a one time occurrence, but with multiple users reporting similar problems. They did not occur with every nest that shipped, but it was enough to warrant an investigation.

 

Here is what he had to say:

 

"That's great to finally put a forum and YouTube name to a face though.  The reason I am wanting to know is I am trying to deal with the issue you have discussed on the forums about the smell and toxicity on occasion of the Type II nests.  All of this has kind of hit me at once and I am able to connect some dots. The fixes are obvious but I would like to see if you would be willing to let me ship a couple of nests to you and get an opinion or feedback on the issues you have noticed before using the new nests. I am fairly confident it began last spring or early summer when I shifted to a new supplier and slightly different materials.  After talking to a materials expert his morning from USG Plaster about this topic recently and hope this is O.K. to email you about this.

 

I did not know this was an issue until last month when another email came to me from someone who ended up washing the nest and was able to continue using it .  No one else has emailed me about this issue unfortunately.  Based on some others comments I saw in the threads you talked about it seems widespread.  Even one instance is a huge issue to me.  Thank you for taking your time on this."

 

THA is in North Carolina, so they do not have access to the ants we have here in CA. Haven't received the formicariums yet, but the plan is to test the nests with as many species as possible. His plan is to call these prototype formicariums "Type III".

 

More detailed information about this can be found on his blog:

http://tarheelants.b...e-ii-nests.html

 

Novomessor cockerelli, Myrmecocystus, Pogonomyrmex,Veromessor andrei, and Veromessor pergandei are on the list for testing among many others. These are the species users as well as myself have observed to have issues.

 

Mack and I have exchanged lengthy emails over the past two months. I've never spoken at length to the man behind THA until now, and from what I gather he is quite concerned with what is happening. For those of you who are not familiar with THA formicariums, he literally hand makes every single formicarium in NC. He doesn't outsource his designs to a factory or 3D print shop. Mack is fiercely proud of his work, almost to a fault. It is this reason he does not hang out on public forums - as many of you know they can be filled with unwarranted negativity and sensationalized posts from users who may not even have firsthand experience with the product.

 

In other words, let's keep this thread objective. If you would like to contribute to the discussion in a positive constructive manner, sure. But I've spoken to Drew about this, and we do not want this to turn into flame war hate-fest filled with misinformation and name calling.  

 

This thread will be updated when we start testing them out on different species.

 

 

[T.C.]

I've always liked Tarheel Ants because they are all hand built. Its also the reason his prices are perfectly acceptable. And in all reality they are some of the most beautiful nests available. I mostly just like nests that look natural. I coincidentally haven't bought from him, because I enjoy creating my own naturalistic setups which I feel I was gifted with. But I would.

Edit: Also his response time is awesome. I recently emailed him regarding the use of his water towers and he got back to me within an hour. The response was as well very detailed.

Edited by T.C., February 23 2018 - 3:05 PM.

[CoolColJ]

I have 2 Atom C purchased from a local third party, so I think they were made quite a while back, since Tarheel ants no longer sell them.

They have a pretty bad ordour, even though I rinsed them out once.
So are these the bad batch as well?

I did transfer my Strobe ant queen and brood into one, but she still seems to be ok after a couple of days

While with the Atom C I put into the outworld for my Camponotus Aeneopilosus (queen and 2 nanitics), currently in a test tube.
Hoping they would move it, the workers never go inside to explore it, they peek into the entrance and keep moving.... maybe the smell is too strong for them...
I will try and soak this Atom C for a few days, rinse and air, repeat if necessary I guess

Edited by CoolColJ, March 1 2018 - 1:07 AM.

[nurbs]

Did the local party who sold it to you have any problems with the nest? Was it used? Ask them first. From my understanding at least, the issues were from 2017 formicariums only.

 

If there is an odor, it could have been from the previous colony that was in it. Drop a few workers in to see how they do first.

 

It's never a bad idea to clean a few times, with any formicarium. When re-using Mini Hearths from a previous colony that has upgraded to a larger nest, I always wash it first before putting in new colony.

[CoolColJ]

Did the local party who sold it to you have any problems with the nest? Was it used? Ask them first. From my understanding at least, the issues were from 2017 formicariums only.
 
If there is an odor, it could have been from the previous colony that was in it. Drop a few workers in to see how they do first.
 
It's never a bad idea to clean a few times, with any formicarium. When re-using Mini Hearths from a previous colony that has upgraded to a larger nest, I always wash it first before putting in new colony.

By third party, I meant reseller, so they are brand new, and wrapped up tight in plastic wrap and other packaging, which I assume is how they left Tarheel Ants.
The seller had 20 units, well 18 now. So I guess they have been sitting there a while considering THA no longer sell them

The smell is a pretty strong chemical glue like one.

The untreated one is housing my Strobe ant queen and brood, and she hasn't died yet or act weird.
The other one I've soaked for a day, and currently airing out, but it still has a smell to it, just less so.

Edited by CoolColJ, March 1 2018 - 12:48 PM.

[Kevin]

The other one I've soaked for a day, and currently airing out, but it still has a smell to it, just less so.

 

 

Not sure if you've read Drew's formicaria threads, and I have no idea what the THA type 1 formicaria are cast with, but I wouldn't soak them for extended periods of time. Drew has done many tests and concluded that gypsum (often in many curable cements like grout) dissolves in water. See: http://www.aqion.de/site/166 for more information on the solubility of gypsum. A good scrub or two with soapy water and a toothbrush is a good idea.

Edited by Kevin, March 1 2018 - 2:39 PM.

[nurbs]

The other one I've soaked for a day, and currently airing out, but it still has a smell to it, just less so.

 
 
Not sure if you've read Drew's formicaria threads, and I have no idea what the THA type 1 formicaria are cast with, but I wouldn't soak them for extended periods of time. Drew has done many tests and concluded that gypsum (often in many curable cements like grout) dissolves in water. See: http://www.aqion.de/site/166 for more information on the solubility of gypsum. A good scrub or two with soapy water and a toothbrush is a good idea.

Type I is Ytong, aerated concrete, not gypsum based. You can find more info on their website. The Type I did not have issues, only Type II, so no need to soak or wash. I have personally never used Type I but have seen many of them in person from GAN buyers.

Type I is not cast, but carved from a square brick, I believe. Don’t think his materials are any way similar to what Drew uses.

[CoolColJ]

Well I wouldn't scrub my Atom C , because it has sand subtrate loosely adhered to the inner walls.

Edited by CoolColJ, March 2 2018 - 2:48 AM.

[CoolColJ]

Well I transferred my young Camponotus Aeneopilosus family of Queen, 2 workers and some 10 eggs into the Atom C a day and a bit ago, which I had soak/aired out twice, due to a leaking test tube.
It still had a bit of a smell...

And today my Camponotus Aeneopilosus queen died!!

I saw her lying on her side and shone the LED light from my magnifier on her, and she moved her antenna a bit, but now she is motionless on her back
I was wondering why she moved from on top the water tower to the side last night....

Now I'm second guessing whether the Atom C odour killed her or she died from natural causes
The 2 workers are still alive right now

Edited by CoolColJ, March 4 2018 - 5:13 PM.

[dspdrew]

In my experience with keeping ants, I have found that the queens can withstand a lot more than the workers. If anything is going to kill the queen, it would most certainly kill the workers too. Your queen was probably already dying.

[nurbs]

The workers are the ones that start dying when you put them in an affected nest, not the queen. If your workers are still alive and the queen is dead, she was probably already sick to begin with. Queens, in general, are much more resilient and "durable" than her workers.

[CoolColJ]

thanks

I figured she had failing health by her behaviour and there is a curious blob of liquid on top of the water tower where the queen was sitting when she was alive.
Maybe that leaked from her. You can see it in the above pics when you click for the larger versions

and she had these spots on her gaster

Edited by CoolColJ, March 5 2018 - 1:33 PM.

[Mettcollsuss]

Is it only the type 2 that's harmful to ants? Is it safe for me to get type 1? If so, would the outworlds be safe? I know the outworlds have landscaped/textured bottoms.

[nurbs]

Is it only the type 2 that's harmful to ants? Is it safe for me to get type 1? If so, would the outworlds be safe? I know the outworlds have landscaped/textured bottoms.

 

Read the original post.

[Mettcollsuss]

It still doesn't mention the outworld. The reason I'm asking is that I had my Tetramorium immigrans colony hooked up to one of their small 3" outworlds, and half the colony died due to the fumes. If I get, for example, a type I Mini Hearth, will the outworld be safe?

[nurbs]

It still doesn't mention the outworld. The reason I'm asking is that I had my Tetramorium immigrans colony hooked up to one of their small 3" outworlds, and half the colony died due to the fumes. If I get, for example, a type I Mini Hearth, will the outworld be safe?

 

Quote from blog link in original post:

 

This has also not been a problem in the smaller formicaria such as a Mini Hearth, Inception Chamber, or Talus. It seems to only be a problem in larger Type II formicaria where curing times are much longer.

 

Any Type I nest has never been a problem. All the existing Type II nests have been thoroughly cleaned and will be tested with live ants before shipping (no ants will be shipped inside them..). All orders placed after today for custom formicaria will be made using the new "Type III"

 

Don't want to speak for THA with any specific questions since I don't represent or work for them, but it has only been Type II nests that have had problems. What you want to be 100% sure of is that the ants are dying because of the fumes and not something else, like a sick queen or colony or improper care. Have other ants died in it as well?

 

A few GAN buyers this year purchase the Mini Hearth Type II and none of them reported problems. Here's a Mini Hearth Type II from last year from user Pleming. Don't think he washed his either:

 

http://www.formicult...olony-for-sale/

 

If you're still concerned after purchasing, regardless it is Type I or II, just clean it per the instructions from original post. In my opinion, if you get the Mini Hearth, you should be safe. But don't yell at or come at me with big stick if they die. 

[Jamiesname]

Well, the reason it would smell is because it's put in a small box with no ventilation. So it builds up. A few hours sitting out, you wouldn't be able to pick up any noticeable scents just walking around in your room.

Wish it was that simple. I have three Atoms with the built-in mini outworld that still has the scent. Been airing them out for nearly a year. Every time I put a colony in there, it kills them.

M. navajo, P. rugosus, Forelius sp., and V. pergandei were the casualties.

I ordered a THA fortress and I moved my Formica Pacifica colony into it right away with no deaths. Even though it had a strong odor to it fresh out of the box. A few weeks later, and the odor is gone and the colony went from 20 to 155 workers in 3 months!

Right, it is a hit or miss, you got lucky. Just because you didn't have any issues doesn't mean it won't happen to others. Had three buyers who killed off their entire colony (All of them were N. cockerelli) within 15 min of putting them into a Fortress - which incidentally also took over a month to receive. You can tell by the workers behavior that they won't make it. They drag their antennae on the ground, twitch, walk around in circles, and move very strange.

Needless to say, I was on the "tech support" end and trying to help them recover whatever they could. Wasn't fun.

I would caution all buyers about this, especially if they spent the time or money to raise a colony.

At the same time, had buyers with C. modoc that moved into a brand new Fortress with minor issues (a number of dead workers). Some species are also much more sensitive to chemical smells (like Acromyrmex in plastics) than others.

I submerge everything in water and let air it out now. Did this to the last three Fortress that was ordered, and had zero deaths in transferring the colony (C. sansabeanus, Polygnyous C. vicinus, and M. mexicanus).

Just to be patient. Don't just dump the entire colony into the formicarium once you receive it (it's understandably hard to do because it takes him so long to get them delivered in the first place)

I had this happen to me and my m. Mexicanus colony. I left their mini hearth hooked up to the same formicarium you pictured (premade mini fortress I think?) and they wouldn't move in. I thought they were just being stubborn, as they can be when moving, so I finally just dumped them in. The next day half the colony was dead. Two days later they were all dead (27 little corpses in all) except the queen and, thankfully, 3 pupae. It's been about 2 months and I'm back up to 8 workers, lots of larvae, pupae and eggs. I almost gave up on them but left them alone to see which direction it was going to go. Thank God it turned out OK because I absolutely love this colony.

I'm fairly new to the hobby, but I did think it was more than coincidence that they all died off within 2 days of moving into the new formicarium, but I pushed that thought out of my head due to THA's good reputaion and blamed my lack of experience. I wish I would have went with my original thought now.

Edited by Jamiesname, March 11 2018 - 6:48 PM.

[nurbs]

 

 

I had this happen to me and my m. Mexicanus colony. I left their mini hearth hooked up to the same formicarium you pictured (premade mini fortress I think?) and they wouldn't move in. I thought they were just being stubborn, as they can be when moving, so I finally just dumped them in. The next day half the colony was dead. Two days later they were all dead (27 little corpses in all) except the queen and, thankfully, 3 pupae. It's been about 2 months and I'm back up to 8 workers, lots of larvae, pupae and eggs. I almost gave up on them but left them alone to see which direction it was going to go. Thank God it turned out OK because I absolutely love this colony.

I'm fairly new to the hobby, but I did think it was more than coincidence that they all died off within 2 days of moving into the new formicarium, but I pushed that thought out of my head due to THA's good reputaion and blamed my lack of experience. I wish I would have went with my original thought now.

 

 

 

Sounds like one from the bad batch. Just so we can rule out everything else, the Fortress was brand new from 2017, the water tower was well hydrated, and you didn't have any other food particles or mold in there, right?

 

Can't speak for THA, but have you contacted them? Myrmecocystus are similar to Novomessors - they appear to be quite sensitive to the scent. I do have a colony of M. mexicanus with 60-80 workers in a Mini Hearth that I will test when the Type III nests come in. They are on the way now, and should receive them next week, as long as UPS doesn't lose the package (they have before!).

[Jamiesname]

After posting, I went back and looked at the order date & info. It was "Fortress (Holiday Beige 27) (Custom Type II) Fulfilled on Dec 12, 2017".

No, I never contacted them because I really had no evidence regarding how the ants died, only my thoughts regarding the formicarium being the culprit. I talked myself out of it by figuring that many people use those formicariums without incident and that my lack of experience must have been the issue.

Regarding your other questions, yes, the water tower was full and the formicarium was new out of the box. No food, no mold. Another red flag that I thought was odd and I should have taken more serious back then was that the ants were filling the tube between the mini hearth and the fortress with sand from the outworld. I thought that they were doing it because perhaps the colony was a little too small to move into that much room at the time. Hind sight is 20/20.

I'll contact THA and let them know, just for their benefit and the benefit of others. I'm not looking for any reimbursement or anything, and I will definitely still do business there. I'm just going to wash and air out any new formicarium I purchase from now on, and that goes for anywhere I buy it, not just THA. It was way to close of a call to repeat when it can be prevented with a little patience.

Edited by Jamiesname, March 12 2018 - 2:22 PM.

[nurbs]

After posting, I went back and looked at the order date & info. It was "Fortress (Holiday Beige 27) (Custom Type II) Fulfilled on Dec 12, 2018".

No, I never contacted them because I really had no evidence regarding how the ants died, only my thoughts regarding the formicarium being the culprit. I talked myself out of it by figuring that many people use those formicariums without incident and that my lack of experience must have been the issue.

 

You mean Dec 12, 2017? 

 

Thanks for input. This is the kind of data we want to gather on the issue.

 

Don't be too hard on yourself, at least your colony is recovering! Hindsight is most definitely 20/20.