48 replies to this topic

[VoidElecent]

Hello,

 

I have recently started a business selling queens and colonies to ant-keepers in the Philadelphia area: The Antsylvania Ant Adoption. The project, very similar to the AntsCanada GAN project, has been a major success. I've received a substantial amount of inquiries, and have invested in a domain name, hosting, and a camera for some decent quality macro shots for thumbnails.

 

Visit my business website:

 

www.Antsylvania.com

 

Yes, the majority of customers are based in Southeastern Pennsylvania, but I receive inquiries from interested hobbyists around the country. As much as I'd like to sell my colonies to these ant keepers, I'm not particularly keen on pushing my limits with the Department of Agriculture.

 

I would, however, be open to selling your ants to out-of-state ant keepers. Here's how I see it working:

1. I'd list your colonies on my website under a subdomain (e.g. nj.antsylvania.com or antsylvania.com/newjersey).
2. Customers would contact me directly about an inquiry (regarding a colony listed in their state only), and I'd handle the nit-picky stuff like payment, shipping (if necessary), logistics, and questions or concerns.
3. At this point, I'd connect the customer to my supplier (you), and you could hash out the details and arrange a time/place to meet.
4. I'd receive a percentage of the sale on a commission-based system, you'd get the rest.

It's just a shot in the dark. I hate to turn down so many customers on the basis of location only. 

 

PM me if you're interested and we can arrange payment options and other technicalities. I don't have any of this set up yet; I wanted to make sure I could take it somewhere, first.

 

Edit: As a result of relentless arbitrary and disorderly arguing, this thread has been discontinued. Please visit the Antsylvania subforum under the 'Market' section of Formiculture if you are interested in the topic described above. 

Edited by VoidElecent, February 10 2018 - 2:43 PM.

[Derpy]

Wait but if I live in California and for example I want a pheidole Tysoni which aren’t native, isn’t that illegal? I thought it was illegal to ship fertile queen ants of state borders?

[Hunter]

Wait but if I live in California and for example I want a pheidole Tysoni which aren’t native, isn’t that illegal? I thought it was illegal to ship fertile queen ants of state borders?

i think he is talking on selling your ants in what state you live in, just using his website

[Derpy]

Oh, but if you go to the website it says free shipping to wherever you live, it’s kinda confusing.

[Hunter]

Oh, but if you go to the website it says free shipping to wherever you live, it’s kinda confusing.

hm maybe on nests or he means where ever you live in that state

[Serafine]

So you want to provide an alternative to GAN? Good, because GAN is a neglected chaotic messy ****hole with practically no quality control.

 

What do you need to provide to make this thing successful?

QUALITY.

 

This might work as a forum (especially for the US/CA area where you can only buy in the same state anyway) but probably is more effective with a simple database.

What you need is an ID for every trader and every colony (could be something like country-state-trader_ID-colony_ID (colony ID should obviously include the species name), like us-ca-0001-lasiusniger1) and a mandatory monthly update on every colony that's on the page (including founding colonies that aren't for sale yet). That is pretty much the only way you can avoid scams like brood-boosting (because you'll see if there suddenly are more pupae than there were larvae before) and other dubious practices (there are certain shops that are known to keep their queens at cool temperatures for far too long to prevent them from laying eggs and some even do mass-founding of monogynous species like Camponotus ligniperda which regularly leads to customers receiving badly exhausted or even infertile queens or dysfunctional colonies).

 

It's also the only way you could be successful in Europe because the shops here do not offer that layer of quality. If you can build up enough trust within the antkeeping community you could actually compete with the European ant shops or at least force them to do something similar (which would be a good thing for everyone and a real pain in the [censored] for certain well-known shops that tend to engage in dubious practices like those mentioned above).

Edited by Serafine, February 3 2018 - 7:17 PM.

[nurbs]

So you want to provide an alternative to GAN? Good, because GAN is a neglected chaotic messy ****hole with practically no quality control.

 

 

Please keep this on topic and stop spreading misinformation and assumptions.

 

Do you have firsthand experience with working with and purchasing through GAN? Because the last time I checked, there are no GAN farmers in Germany.

[Serafine]

Until quite recently people on GAN could sell imported fire ants (which was potentially illegal in certain places), queens without eggs and "unidentified black ants" in glass bottles. Things have improved and they seem to actually enforce their own rules better now but it's winter and there are not that many ants for sale, when the floodgates open in summer it will show if they can keep it that way.

 

Generally GAN is still extremely basic as a market place (it's basically just a virtual corkboard with plain text entries for every available colony) and could be so much more, but then it is free of charge now so I admit it would be a bit unfair to expect something overly sophisticated.

Edited by Serafine, February 3 2018 - 8:09 PM.

[Derpy]

Yes, the GAN Project could use some extra work but you have to give credit for the AntsCanada team for creating it in the first place, without them we wouldn’t have anything.

[nurbs]

Until quite recently people on GAN could sell imported fire ants (which was potentially illegal in certain places), queens without eggs and "unidentified black ants" in glass bottles.

 

Of course we shouldn't be selling RIFAs, but I ask you again - do you have proof or firsthand experience that these super expensive $5 red imported fire ants were even sold? In states that were already laughably invaded with them? (I would know, I've lived and grew up in three of those states)

 

Or do you just like making innuendos, spreading misinformation, and typing in lots of CAPS for the sake of sensationalizing issues?

 

This is all the more ironic that it comes from someone in Germany, a country that has absolutely zero border laws in transporting exotic ant species, who spends his waking hours policing others they've never met halfway around the globe in what they can and cannot do.

 

Shouldn't you be trying to change the border laws in Germany? Since you care so much about the environment?

[Serafine]

Of course we shouldn't be selling RIFAs, but I ask you again - do you have proof or firsthand experience that these super expensive $5 red imported fire ants were even sold? In states that were already laughably invaded with them? (I would know, I've lived and grew up in three of those states)
 
Or do you just like making innuendos, spreading misinformation, and typing in lots of CAPS for the sake of sensationalizing issues?

They were available on the GAN site for purchase and that is enough. At some point someone is going to buy them.
Also it doesn't matter if they're already in a state - just look at Texas where the southern and eastern areas of the state are completely overrun by fire ants but the western counties are still pretty much clear of them. This is also the point were the only-sell-within-a-state concept of GAN fails - the RIFA quarantine zone runs straight through the middle of at least four states which means selling imported fire ants to people on the opposite end of the state (or in the worst case the neighboring county) would actually be illegal.
And while I agree that antkeeping is the least likely way for invasive ants to spread (they usually do that very well by hitch-riding commercial transports) with the GAN project and it's relation to the AntsCanada Youtube channel that overly targets a very young premature audience the chances of those ants ending up in the hands of a clueless kid with equally clueless parents and terminally getting dumped into the backyard after the kid lost interest in them is actually a lot bigger than with usual ant exchange/shop pages.

 

Also, lots of caps? Really? I made a single cap and that wasn't even related to GAN.
 

This is all the more ironic that it comes from someone in Germany, a country that has absolutely zero border laws in transporting exotic ant species, who spends his waking hours policing others they've never met halfway around the globe in what they can and cannot do.
 
Shouldn't you be trying to change the border laws in Germany? Since you care so much about the environment?

I do in fact bother with the laws and while I'm not flat-out against keeping exotic ants I really don't see a point in shipping ants from Asia, America or Australia to Europe - but I'm more concerned about what the increasingly popular antkeeping hobby does to the natural environments and populations of those exotic ants (and about the casualties caused by the shipping due to poorly qualified people packing them into insufficient packages with the result of half the queens dying on the way) than the damage they could cause in Europe.

 

Europe (other than large parts of the US and Canada) is essentially to 100% a "culturified" environment, there is no actual real nature in Europe at all (except for the super cold northern parts which are essentially immune to invasive ants), all of it got routed out a thousand years ago by the ever-sprouting human population. None of the woods here are even remotely natural and even less so the meadows - literally EVERYTHING here is artificial.

Furthermore the low temperatures in central Europe easily wipe out any exotic ant populations that do not house within buildings or around district heating pipes - and any colony that could potentially survive in urban areas has a high chance of getting wiped out by the omnipresent Lasius niger which utterly dominates those urban bioms and is astonishingly effective at wiping out any potential competition. In fact the only dangerous invasive ant species in central Europe is the ominous Lasius neglectus (a supercolony-forming Lasius species that can survive the cold winter) which isn't even available for sale anywhere.

 

I'm fine with people keeping ants from southern Europe, like Messor barbarus, Camponotus cruentatus or Crematogaster scrutellaris - these ants have been available here for decades, they're in the mail for a week at most and there has never been any issue with them (also they can't survive the cold winter and if the climate actually changes to a point where they could survive they'd find their way here anyway, just like the Messor structor that can already be found in certain warm areas in western Germany and is actually considered a native species). But I really don't think we need Atta, Pogonomyrmex, Ponerines or Myrmecia in european households - ants that often traveled in the mail for weeks to reach Europe and require very specific climate conditions that are hard to replicate. And I'm definitely sure we do not need such ridiculousness as the super rare Dinoymyrmex gigas for 1500€, that's just beyond stupid.

 

So yes, I'd like to have a RATIONAL discussion about the sales of exotic ants in Germany - unfortunately there IS no rationality in this discussion. We only have the majority of people who don't really care (most of the population and most the scientific community) and on the other side a few people lead by a well-known individual from the scientific community who behaves like a fanatic evangelizing zealot completely opposing the sales and keeping of ANY non-native species (except for "responsible scientists" of course, those can keep whatever ants they want - which immediately tells you how hypocritical their claims are).

Maybe with the recent discussion about the current major insect extinction event (overall insect populations have decreased by 80% since 1990) an actual proper discussion about ants may arise as a by-product although I don't really think so as ants are probably the only insect family that isn't really affected by that major insect die-out (it's mostly a butterfly, bee and hoverfly problem) plus certain species like the hill-building wood ants of the Formica rufa/polyctena group are already protected (you cannot catch, keep, buy or sell them, even damaging their nests or displacing them from your garden is forbidden, so yes we do have some ant laws in Germany).

Edited by Serafine, February 4 2018 - 4:18 AM.

[VoidElecent]

Thank you all for the responses.

 

This thread was, by no means, an attempt to belittle or undermine AntsCanada and Mikey Bustos. Yes, the GAN project has its flaws as I am sure we are all aware, but it does its job. Responding to Serafine, of course, quality will be (and has been) this company's primary interest— regulations on the sale of specific invasive species (Solenopsis invicta, Linethipema humile, Brachymyrmex patagonicus etc.) will undoubtedly be instituted. On the topic of 'quality', customer service and interpersonal communication will be of utmost importance; purchasing a colony from Antsylvania or one of our distributors will really be like adopting a pet, not buying a toy.

 

Once again, nothing against GAN. Honestly, Mikey Bustos has a successful company and thriving YouTube channel— he has enough on his plate. As a matter of fact, the reason this hobby is growing at such an accelerating rate is all thanks to AntsCanada. Mikey may have made some mistakes here and there, but he's inspired a generation of ant-keepers passionate about nature and enthusiastic about what they love. If a national Antsylvania distribution project were to actually work out, the company's sole intent would be to promote its own standards, not compromise anyone else's. 

 

I understand there is also some confusion regarding distribution logistics. If a customer in California was in the market for Pheidole tysoni, then... well... tough luck! An out-of-state customer would only be able to purchase colonies listed for that state. For example, that same Californian customer might have no other option but to settle for a Pheidole xerophila colony from an Atyslvania distributor in LA.

 

Hope this helps.

Edited by VoidElecent, February 4 2018 - 10:11 AM.

[opezskiller]

Yeah I’d like something with more strict rules

[Derpy]

Thank you all for the responses.
 
This thread was, by no means, an attempt to belittle or undermine AntsCanada and Mikey Bustos. Yes, the GAN project has its flaws as I am sure we are all aware, but it does its job. Responding to Serafine, of course, quality will be (and has been) this company's primary interest— regulations on the sale of specific invasive species (Solenopsis invicta, Linethipema humile, Brachymyrmex patagonicus etc.) will undoubtedly be instituted. On the topic of 'quality', customer service and interpersonal communication will be of utmost importance; purchasing a colony from Antsylvania or one of our distributors will really be like adopting a pet, not buying a toy.
 
Once again, nothing against GAN. Honestly, Mikey Bustos has a successful company and thriving YouTube channel— he has enough on his plate. As a matter of fact, the reason this hobby is growing at such an accelerating rate is all thanks to AntsCanada. Mikey may have made some mistakes here and there, but he's inspired a generation of ant-keepers passionate about nature and enthusiastic about what they love. If a national Antsylvania distribution project were to actually work out, the company's sole intent would be to promote its own standards, not compromise anyone else's. 
 
I understand there is also some confusion regarding distribution logistics. If a customer in California was in the market for Pheidole tysoni, then... well... tough luck! An out-of-state customer would only be able to purchase colonies listed for that state. For example, that same Californian customer might have no other option but to settle for a Pheidole xerophila colony from an Atyslvania distributor in LA.
 
Hope this helps.

Ohhhhhh that makes sense.

[Jonathan21700]

In the colder parts of Europe the winter will be a problem for tropical, subtropical invasive species. But what can we say about the mediterranean parts of Europe?

L. humile have already been established in the western part. I am pretty sure that for example S. invicta will have no problem too considering that S. geminata has already been recorded from Greece and Turkey, the climate is just perfect for them. 

[nurbs]

 

Of course we shouldn't be selling RIFAs, but I ask you again - do you have proof or firsthand experience that these super expensive $5 red imported fire ants were even sold? In states that were already laughably invaded with them? (I would know, I've lived and grew up in three of those states)
 
Or do you just like making innuendos, spreading misinformation, and typing in lots of CAPS for the sake of sensationalizing issues?

They were available on the GAN site for purchase and that is enough. At some point someone is going to buy them.
Also it doesn't matter if they're already in a state - just look at Texas where the southern and eastern areas of the state are completely overrun by fire ants but the western counties are still pretty much clear of them. This is also the point were the only-sell-within-a-state concept of GAN fails - the RIFA quarantine zone runs straight through the middle of at least four states which means selling imported fire ants to people on the opposite end of the state (or in the worst case the neighboring county) would actually be illegal.
And while I agree that antkeeping is the least likely way for invasive ants to spread (they usually do that very well by hitch-riding commercial transports) with the GAN project and it's relation to the AntsCanada Youtube channel that overly targets a very young premature audience the chances of those ants ending up in the hands of a clueless kid with equally clueless parents and terminally getting dumped into the backyard after the kid lost interest in them is actually a lot bigger than with usual ant exchange/shop pages.

 

The irony and hypocrisy of your entire response is mindbogglingly astounding. A German foreigner who lives on a continent with no laws prohibiting exotic species from crossing borders, has never used GAN or is a GAN farmer, has never reared or handled Solenopsis invicta and has never set foot on Texas soil and possibly even the US is lecturing a native Texan (who is an experienced GAN farmer) his expertise of Solenopsis invicta because he has a diploma from Google Search University.

 

You must believe when RIFAs fly, they carry a PDF map of the quarantine zone, lest they offend the feds? 

 

Areas outside of the zone are already infested, such as Amarillo and Lubbock. This was ten years ago. Most likely worse now. Last year, someone from Katy was selling RIFAs for a wallet stealing five bucks. Closest city outside of quarantine is Lubbock. Drive from Lubbock to Katy is a good days, 8-9 hours just one way. The parents of the child would have to spend at least two days, lots of gas money, one nights lodging, and the $5 for those ants. Haha. No parent has ever driven their child more than 1 or 2 hours to buys ants. Firsthand GAN farmer experience. I get kids all the time begging to ship them ants because their parents wouldn't drive them. 

 

"But is it still possible a parent would do this for their child!", you say. In a world of infinite possibilities, sure. Just like I can wake up tomorrow morning and win the MegaMillions lotto.

 

 

 

 

Also, lots of caps? Really? I made a single cap and that wasn't even related to GAN.

 

Yes, with lots of CAPS. You and I both know we're not just referring to this post. Not only do you attack GAN every chance you get, but have policed others halfway across the globe for illegal selling while inciting fellow forum users to take action and report them to the federal authorities and "take them out". Using Google and the Internet as your only evidence, you play judge jury and executioner and target people you've never met online (some of them just kids who don't know any better) who have done no harm to you. You make assumptions and innuendos to spread misinformation with no real firsthand evidence on any of your topics while sensationalizing and dramatizing everything. These kinds of posts do not belong on Formiculture.

 

 

 

 

This is all the more ironic that it comes from someone in Germany, a country that has absolutely zero border laws in transporting exotic ant species, who spends his waking hours policing others they've never met halfway around the globe in what they can and cannot do.
 
Shouldn't you be trying to change the border laws in Germany? Since you care so much about the environment?

I do in fact bother with the laws and while I'm not flat-out against keeping exotic ants I really don't see a point in shipping ants from Asia, America or Australia to Europe - but I'm more concerned about what the increasingly popular antkeeping hobby does to the natural environments and populations of those exotic ants (and about the casualties caused by the shipping due to poorly qualified people packing them into insufficient packages with the result of half the queens dying on the way) than the damage they could cause in Europe.

 

Europe (other than large parts of the US and Canada) is essentially to 100% a "culturified" environment, there is no actual real nature in Europe at all (except for the super cold northern parts which are essentially immune to invasive ants), all of it got routed out a thousand years ago by the ever-sprouting human population. None of the woods here are even remotely natural and even less so the meadows - literally EVERYTHING here is artificial.

Furthermore the low temperatures in central Europe easily wipe out any exotic ant populations that do not house within buildings or around district heating pipes - and any colony that could potentially survive in urban areas has a high chance of getting wiped out by the omnipresent Lasius niger which utterly dominates those urban bioms and is astonishingly effective at wiping out any potential competition. In fact the only dangerous invasive ant species in central Europe is the ominous Lasius neglectus (a supercolony-forming Lasius species that can survive the cold winter) which isn't even available for sale anywhere.

 

I'm fine with people keeping ants from southern Europe, like Messor barbarus, Camponotus cruentatus or Crematogaster scrutellaris - these ants have been available here for decades, they're in the mail for a week at most and there has never been any issue with them (also they can't survive the cold winter and if the climate actually changes to a point where they could survive they'd find their way here anyway, just like the Messor structor that can already be found in certain warm areas in western Germany and is actually considered a native species). But I really don't think we need Atta, Pogonomyrmex, Ponerines or Myrmecia in european households - ants that often traveled in the mail for weeks to reach Europe and require very specific climate conditions that are hard to replicate. And I'm definitely sure we do not need such ridiculousness as the super rare Dinoymyrmex gigas for 1500€, that's just beyond stupid.

 

So yes, I'd like to have a RATIONAL discussion about the sales of exotic ants in Germany - unfortunately there IS no rationality in this discussion. We only have the majority of people who don't really care (most of the population and most the scientific community) and on the other side a few people lead by a well-known individual from the scientific community who behaves like a fanatic evangelizing zealot completely opposing the sales and keeping of ANY non-native species (except for "responsible scientists" of course, those can keep whatever ants they want - which immediately tells you how hypocritical their claims are).

Maybe with the recent discussion about the current major insect extinction event (overall insect populations have decreased by 80% since 1990) an actual proper discussion about ants may arise as a by-product although I don't really think so as ants are probably the only insect family that isn't really affected by that major insect die-out (it's mostly a butterfly, bee and hoverfly problem) plus certain species like the hill-building wood ants of the Formica rufa/polyctena group are already protected (you cannot catch, keep, buy or sell them, even damaging their nests or displacing them from your garden is forbidden, so yes we do have some ant laws in Germany).

 

 

 

Not sure what your lengthy opinions on which species should or should not cross European borders has anything to do with the topic at hand because no one cares. I mentioned those nonexistent laws to show your hypocrisy and apparently it touched a nerve. Point is, you live in a nation where anyone can freely transport exotic species of ants across borders without consequence, and the US cannot.

 

Do you see any of us from the US hang out in European or German ant forums, policing them, enforcing our views, lecturing them about the environment, and constantly shaming them with border laws? No.

 

According to you, all of Europe is "essentially a 100% culturified environment and literally EVERYTHING is artificial" (haha what does any of that even mean?), which gives you guys a FREE PASS on transporting exotic species across borders. How much of Europe have you actually seen? (in real life, not google)

 

Not to brag or boast, but I've been to all parts of Europe - Madrid, the Alps, beaches of Nice and Cannes, Zurich, the UK, Florence, Paris, Venice, and even lived in Switzerland for a month. If all this is "100% culturified literally EVERYTHING is artificial", then using your logic I can equally say Dallas and Houston Texas are also "100% culturified literally EVERYTHING is artificial". Do we get a FREE PASS?

 

Look dude. You may have fooled many of the newer and younger members here into thinking your are an environmental angel who deeply cares about the what happens on the other side of world which you have never seen, but you don't fool me. Stop with the charade, OK?

Edited by nurbs, February 6 2018 - 5:55 PM.

[YsTheAnt]

I agree, please don't take sides on matters you have no experience with, living across the globe from where this matters. The bottom line is no one has more experience on a subject than someone who HAS PARTICIPATED AND USED WHATEVER IS UNDER DEBATE, which nurbs clearly has.

On a side note, my parents drove me 3 hrs each way to buy ants once (made sure they aren't invasive, I consider myself pretty knowledgeable for a person who has been in this for just under a year...At least I think I am...), and I felt so guilty for putting them through it (even though they said it was fine), which is why I'm determined to start catching and selling through marketplace and maybe GAN to those unfortunate people who can't go all the way to Sonora or Sacramento from San Jose/Francisco.

Edited by YsTheAnt, February 6 2018 - 9:46 PM.

[Serafine]

According to you, all of Europe is "essentially a 100% culturified environment and literally EVERYTHING is artificial" (haha what does any of that even mean?), which gives you guys a FREE PASS on transporting exotic species across borders. How much of Europe have you actually seen? (in real life, not google)

 

Not to brag or boast, but I've been to all parts of Europe - Madrid, the Alps, Zurich, beaches of Nice and Cannes, Zurich, the UK, Florence, Paris, Venice, and even lived in Switzerland for a month. If all this is "100% culturified literally EVERYTHING is artificial", then using your logic I can equally say Dallas and Houston Texas are also "100% culturified literally EVERYTHING is artificial". Do we get a FREE PASS?

It means that EVERYTHING in Europe has been shaped by men for thousands of years. Nothing here is truly natural, not even our nature preserves.

 

The only places in Germany that are pretty much untouched by men are army training grounds and even those are artificial because they haven't been like that for thousands of years (most of those are just about 60 years old).

If left untouched pretty much the entirety of central Europe would be a single massive impassable beech wood (with the exception of mountain regions but even the alps would look completely different if they were not permanently grazed down by cattle and artificially stabilized for safety reasons).

 

 

On the topic of invasive ants - let's just not bother because everything is lost anyway? Is that your logic?

Or is it the "it's our country so let us screw it up if we want to?". Also, you obviously you speak for everyone in your country as if there's literally nobody who thinks selling invasive ants is a terrible idea.

Or are you just jealous that you cannot have exotic ants for yourself and want a FREE PASS? Your post very much implies that.

 

As I've said, I'd be completely okay of we'd had better laws on exotic ants, at least prohibiting sales of ants that aren't from Europe. However in Germany we do not need them, at least not for the protection of our own ecosystem. No invasive ant can survive here (with the exception of Lasius neglectus which might actually be native).

And btw if I'd make the laws I would instantly ban birds like parrots and parakeets from shops because they are a much bigger issue than exotic ants which cannot survive here anyway. Ants lack the self-consciousness of understanding captivity and can be properly kept if provided a larger setup, BIRDS CANNOT. Most people who have a pet bird(s) utterly fail at providing them an even remotely sufficient setup. I'd also completely outlaw the sales and breeding of several species of cats and dogs that are so overmodified that they cannot even properly breathe or just live their lives (like all those flat-faced cats that suffer from nasal cavity bones growing into their brains and the flat-faced dogs that can suffocate from a slight cold - at least certain species like naked cats without whiskers got outlawed recently). There's more urgent problems than some foreign ants that are destined to die here anyway if released - if we fixed the more urgent issues with birds and mammals I'd happily come back to regulating ants (and other arthropods).

 

And btw I do not have a FREE PASS. I can never keep those really cool Formica rufa ants that are super abundant five kilometers away in the woods, actually I'm not even allowed to catch a SINGLE queen or worker (this also applies to a few other ant species and even some beetles). So much for that FREE PASS.

 

 

 

On the topic of hypocrisy, I find it quite amazing that you utterly fail to mention the ridiculous hypocrisy involved in the GAN project - which AC never gets tired of praising as an appreciation project for native species and a means to protect the local ecosystem - selling one of the most destructive invasive ants on the planet. If GAN truly stands to what it praises itself to be it should not sell a single invasive species in the areas those species happen to be invaders, be it Solenopsis invicta, Linepithema humile, Pheidole megacephala, Brachymyrmex patagonious, Anoplolepis gracilipes, Monomorium pharaonis, Lasius neglectus or any other species that is known to actively kill or displace native species in the corresponding area - no matter if there are actually laws in place or not.

Yes, it probably wouldn't matter if they stopped selling red imported fire ants in Mexico or not, but if you claim a certain moral high ground for yourself you have live up to it.

 

 

p.s. You pretty much a FREE PASS anyway. If an immature child like Joseph (AlabamaAnter) can get into possession of ants from literally all around the world don't tell me you can't.

Edited by Serafine, February 6 2018 - 11:36 PM.

[nurbs]

Hey VoidElecent - so sorry for destroying your thread. When you made this post, I knew he was going to bring up GAN and did tell him to stay on topic. But aren't there days you just feel like poking a hornet's nest? 

 

In all seriousness, good luck with the endeavor, we support you!

 

 

 

 

According to you, all of Europe is "essentially a 100% culturified environment and literally EVERYTHING is artificial" (haha what does any of that even mean?), which gives you guys a FREE PASS on transporting exotic species across borders. How much of Europe have you actually seen? (in real life, not google)

 

Not to brag or boast, but I've been to all parts of Europe - Madrid, the Alps, Zurich, beaches of Nice and Cannes, Zurich, the UK, Florence, Paris, Venice, and even lived in Switzerland for a month. If all this is "100% culturified literally EVERYTHING is artificial", then using your logic I can equally say Dallas and Houston Texas are also "100% culturified literally EVERYTHING is artificial". Do we get a FREE PASS?

It means that EVERYTHING in Europe has been shaped by men for thousands of years. Nothing here is truly natural, not even our nature preserves.

 

The only places in Germany that are pretty much untouched by men are army training grounds and even those are artificial because they haven't been like that for thousands of years (most of those are just about 60 years old).

If left untouched pretty much the entirety of central Europe would be a single massive impassable beech wood (with the exception of mountain regions but even the alps would look completely different if they were not permanently grazed down by cattle and artificially stabilized for safety reasons).

 

 

On the topic of invasive ants - let's just not bother because everything is lost anyway? Is that your logic?

Or is it the "it's our country so let us screw it up if we want to?". Also, you obviously you speak for everyone in your country as if there's literally nobody who thinks selling invasive ants is a terrible idea.

Or are you just jealous that you cannot have exotic ants for yourself and want a FREE PASS? Your post very much implies that.

 

As I've said, I'd be completely okay of we'd had better laws on exotic ants, at least prohibiting sales of ants that aren't from Europe. However in Germany we do not need them, at least not for the protection of our own ecosystem. No invasive ant can survive here (with the exception of Lasius neglectus which might actually be native).

And btw if I'd make the laws I would instantly ban birds like parrots and parakeets from shops because they are a much bigger issue than exotic ants which cannot survive here anyway. Ants lack the self-consciousness of understanding captivity and can be properly kept if provided a larger setup, BIRDS CANNOT. Most people who have a pet bird(s) utterly fail at providing them an even remotely sufficient setup. I'd also completely outlaw the sales and breeding of several species of cats and dogs that are so overmodified that they cannot even properly breathe or just live their lives (like all those flat-faced cats that suffer from nasal cavity bones growing into their brains and the flat-faced dogs that can suffocate from a slight cold - at least certain species like naked cats without whiskers got outlawed recently). There's more urgent problems than some foreign ants that are destined to die here anyway if released - if we fixed the more urgent issues with birds and mammals I'd happily come back to regulating ants (and other arthropods).

 

And btw I do not have a FREE PASS. I can never keep those really cool Formica rufa ants that are super abundant five kilometers away in the woods, actually I'm not even allowed to catch a SINGLE queen or worker (this also applies to a few other ant species and even some beetles). So much for that FREE PASS.

 

 

 

On the topic of hypocrisy, I find it quite amazing that you utterly fail to mention the ridiculous hypocrisy involved in the GAN project - which AC never gets tired of praising as an appreciation project for native species and a means to protect the local ecosystem - selling one of the most destructive invasive ants on the planet. If GAN truly stands to what it praises itself to be it should not sell a single invasive species in the areas those species happen to be invaders, be it Solenopsis invicta, Linepithema humile, Pheidole megacephala, Brachymyrmex patagonious, Anoplolepis gracilipes, Monomorium pharaonis, Lasius neglectus or any other species that is known to actively kill or displace native species in the corresponding area.

Yes, it probably won't matter if they stopped selling red imported fire ants in Mexico or not, but if you claim a certain moral high ground for yourself you have live up to it.

 

 

p.s. You pretty much a FREE PASS anyway. If an immature child like Joseph (AlabamaAnter) can get into possession of ants from literally all around the world don't tell me you can't.

 

 

[KBant]

Serafine, that you?