72 replies to this topic

[GeorgeK]

The comments of his fans is exactly a reason why he needs to get reported considering how influental he is with those kids

Edited by GeorgeK, January 14 2018 - 2:39 AM.

[drtrmiller]

 

What individuals choose to do privately is their business.  But the public forum is, unequivocally, neither the proper place for petitioning criminal trials-by-Google-search, nor for inciting frivolous witch hunts to turn well-meaning antkeepers over to law enforcement or regulatory bodies, no matter how serious the alleged infraction.  While we should all seek to encourage civil discourse regarding the proper final disposition of ant colonies kept by hobbyists, the excessive, infantile tenor of this discussion is wholly self-defeating in furthering that cause.  The fact that this forum freely allows these foolish discussions to endure, for me—and I think for most people—is simply beyond the pale.

 

Far from righting the alleged wrong of releasing ants collected from one's property back onto said property, this theater of outrage is instead only more likely to steer novice antkeepers and others—otherwise good people—away from Formiculture, and toward unmoderated, underground groups in which a few bad apples truly do spoil the bunch.  In other words, fear of criminal consequences and lynch mobs isn't going to convince the average person to effectively murder his or her pet ants as an alternative to releasing them back into nature, but it will most certainly deter them from wanting to engage with this community and its members in favor of ones with more lax standards.

 

So what is the alternative to this sanctimonious silliness?  Start by having evidence-based discussions, citing scholarly journal articles, and arming yourselves with the best possible scientific understanding to support your position, and calmly disseminate that knowledge to others, without all the unnecessary dramatics.  Only when we work together and encourage one another in good faith to uphold the principles to which we purport to adhere, can we begin to teach, positively influence, and attract others to our way of thinking.

Edited by drtrmiller, January 14 2018 - 3:56 AM.

[nurbs]

Why must you always be so beautifully elegant with the English language, Terry?

Was about to reply why these infinitely retarded posts keeps popping up on Formiculture, and here you are stealing my thunder.

[gcsnelling]

 

 

 Here in Hawaii the mangoose is an invasive species

 

 

"Mangoose", I guess this is a new hybrid between a mango and a goose??

[Serafine]

Even if he was wrong, he thought they were Pharoh Ants (which he knows are invasive), and he released them.

They thought selling Solenopsis invicta on the GAN platform was a great idea (and they're still doing it outside the US), you shouldn't be too surprised.

Edited by Serafine, January 15 2018 - 5:29 AM.

[Ants_Texas]

 

What individuals choose to do privately is their business.  But the public forum is, unequivocally, neither the proper place for petitioning criminal trials-by-Google-search, nor for inciting frivolous witch hunts to turn well-meaning antkeepers over to law enforcement or regulatory bodies, no matter how serious the alleged infraction.  While we should all seek to encourage civil discourse regarding the proper final disposition of ant colonies kept by hobbyists, the excessive, infantile tenor of this discussion is wholly self-defeating in furthering that cause.  The fact that this forum freely allows these foolish discussions to endure, for me—and I think for most people—is simply beyond the pale.

 

Far from righting the alleged wrong of releasing ants collected from one's property back onto said property, this theater of outrage is instead only more likely to steer novice antkeepers and others—otherwise good people—away from Formiculture, and toward unmoderated, underground groups in which a few bad apples truly do spoil the bunch.  In other words, fear of criminal consequences and lynch mobs isn't going to convince the average person to effectively murder his or her pet ants as an alternative to releasing them back into nature, but it will most certainly deter them from wanting to engage with this community and its members in favor of ones with more lax standards.

 

So what is the alternative to this sanctimonious silliness?  Start by having evidence-based discussions, citing scholarly journal articles, and arming yourselves with the best possible scientific understanding to support your position, and calmly disseminate that knowledge to others, without all the unnecessary dramatics.  Only when we work together and encourage one another in good faith to uphold the principles to which we purport to adhere, can we begin to teach, positively influence, and attract others to our way of thinking.

Actually, you are correct. However, I don't think he will be willing to talk with anybody on this. The emails you can send to him are basically bots replying.

 

And nurbs, now that I think about it Formiculture really isn't the place for this discussion. 

Edited by Ants_Texas, January 14 2018 - 8:33 AM.

[AntsCanada]

Hi guys,

Someone forwarded me a link to this thread, and I wanted to take the time to say some things because I really care about the ant keeping community especially here. 

First, let me state that I completely understand those who have expressed outrage/backlash towards my ant release video. Releasing a species that is not from one's area is a mesaage we've been propagating consistently on my youtube channel.

If it had been me 7 years ago when I lived in Canada watching that video of a release of pharaoh ants, I would have been exactly as angry and outraged. 

But, in the context of the release, in my opinion releasing those ants in my area was a option because of the following:

1) They were literally caught in my area (in my room).

2) I only housed them in a simple setup for a few weeks, and they did not breed, nor produce alates (in fact they decreased in numbers) under my care. I did not help the colony in any way with survival (they even contracted mites under my care). In fact, had I not captured them, I am sure they would have proceeded to proliferate and thrive as the species naturally does much more than they did during the few weeks under my care.

3) The biggest issue is the "invasive" tag, and I already expected that the video would have caused backlash within this community. The topic has always been one of heated debate. Again, back 7 yrs ago before moving to Manila from Toronto, I would have been outraged at the idea of releasing an invasive ant into the wild. But, now that I have lived here in Manila for 7 yrs now, my perspective on these invasive ants has evolved somewhat. For those who aren't from Manila, these Monomorium ants are as common as house spiders and fruit flies in North American homes. They literally can be found in every corner, every building, every restaurant and store, on every sidewalk. They are omnipresent and come out of hiding if you leave a peice of food on the floor. They move in and out of homes and offices freely. They are very much part of the urban wildlife here in Manila and have been for a long time. Filipinos are so used to seeing them everywhere, even in our beds and shower! Unless you or your building routinely fumigates, these ants come around. I have learned that life in the tropics is a completely different game from my temperate Toronto largely creature-free home.

In the same way that pigeons, rats, Myrmica rubra, Tetramorium immigrans (formerly T. sp E) are invasive in North America, had I captured any of those from the wild, cared for them for a few weeks, then released them back into the wild, I doubt there would be as much backlash. My point is, the idea of pharaoh ants being released here in Manila sounds apocalyptic, but if you live here and saw what the urban wildlife is like here, it would seem to be not as big of a deal. They were a test tube of two queens and 50 workers that were free roaming just weeks before. Of course, some may still not agree with this, but this is why I was ok with this release.

4) Killing of ants: Many biologists and ant keepers have said throughout the years to kill all invasive ants on sight, be they red imported fire ants, pharaoh ants, black crazy ants. Some have suggested even pouring boiling oil on their nests. I simply cannot find it in me to do this. I will never waiver. I was not about to mass kill the pharaoh ant colony.

5) Regarding the release of the ants being illegal even after only a few weeks of care, I am prepared to pay the fine whatever amount it would be. It's a price I am willing to pay to spare me from having to physically kill the ants.

6) Someone brought up AC's influence online among kids and amateur ant keepers. I do realize and understand that influence and responsibility and never take it for granted. I have been trying to do my very best for years at navigating this whole youtube thing which took over my life. I started off as a small channel wanting to share the coolness of ants to those who loved ants like me or who would be bored enough to listen/watch. I did not expect for the channel to get where it is today and I am still juggling that responsibility (while also managing my other obligations) of having to create/edit content that shows the coolness of ants to the world, using my earnings to make good ant products, and stay true to my message of ant love. But sometimes I find myself in situations where choices become complicated, like this pharaoh ant situation, where they were invading my place, I didn't want to kill them, so I trapped them so I could show the world how cool pharaoh ants were, only to find they were not doing well in my setup, and then having to face the decision of either letting them go, or keep them in my room until they died while also having to deal with the loose pharaoh ants invading my place more and more. Choosing to release the pharaoh ants was the best choice to me. I made sure to explain all reasons in the video and also the hidden video, which also included a clear warning to all to not release non-native ants into the wild.

I realize people will still be angry with what I did, no matter what, and I am completely ok with that. Everyone has the right to feel a certain way and voice it. I don't hate anyone for feeling any way, not even detractors. We all love ants here and that is what matters most to me. I am 100% ok with angered people no longer supporting me or AntsCanada. I am just trying to do my best here, guys. I'm an ant keeper exactly like you all, one person trying to make the best decisions in often very complicated situations and under immense scrutiny and pressure from many parties. I hope people don't forget that I am on the side of the ants.

 

Thanks for reading this super long post!

 

Mikey

[Skwiggledork]

I will preface this by saying I am a big fan of AntsCanada, but I would have preferred the pharaoh ants killed. I completely understand they were caught in your room and are so prolific it makes an insignificant difference, but to me it's the principle of dealing with invasive species. Here in NY we have an invasive fish, Cyprinus carpio, or the common carp. It's so prolific and has been here so long, that it's no longer mentioned on most lists of invasive species. I still make a point to kill any I catch. Not because I can single handedly stop the invasion, but any little help I can give native species over an invasive is a positive in my book.

I also get not wanting to kill the ants, but honestly we kill so many feeder insects, that I don't see a difference.

Love the channel though. It was what got me into ant keeping and one of the only ant channels that is actually interesting to watch.

 

[Diesel]

I'm quite perplexed why someone would be so outraged by this. his explanation is valid and his points make complete sense. in just about every state or nation there is some type of invasive species that make themselves part if the eco-system good or bad. in fact some of these invasions have also made keeping for many members possible. whether it be ghost ants, pharoah ants. Red Imported Fire ant & black crazy etc. though i don't condone importing them if they are found currently in your eco system then why not put them back. I'm going to venture to say that releasing this wild caught colony back within weeks of catching them is not really going to make any difference. they are already invading his home. many members i gather do not care for Mikey but his videos are making this hobby a viable one.

Edited by Diesel, January 15 2018 - 5:54 AM.

[Loops117]

Dang. I thought this was too good to be true!

 

We have a leader. someone who's looked up to by many many young ant keepers.

This leader runs GAN, who's very specific on not spreading invasive species.

Seems as though one of the big rules we're not supposed to break, was broken by said leader.

Leader let his personal feelings cloud his better judgement.

Now all followers will think it's ok to let their feelings interfere with their better judgement.

 

Who cares if you can't bring yourself to killing a colony.

If you're gonna push rules, then you need to follow all of them yourself.

 

 

Great leaders do what others don't want to do. You have to set an example and not let yourself be weak infront of the eyes of your followers.

 

Edit: After thinking through this again. I'm still completely mind blown that a video was released as if he was advocating the release/relocation of a colony. He KNOWS that this is something that's extremely frowned upon in the hobby, regardless if the sp. is invasive or not. We don't do this, and for a leader to advocate it is absolute rubbish.

 

If you truly cared for the hobby as you say you do, you would have killed the colony and made an example for the rest of us to follow. The fact that you made yet another click bait video with ill advised information and examples only leads me to continue to believe that you're more interested in the contents of your wallet and not the hobby you're banking off of.

You're viewed as a God (for lack of better terms) in the eyes of many young ant keepers, so why are you going about this so childishly? Every move you make and word you speak is taken very literal by 90% of your followers, so why arnt you trying harder to carefully place your steps? You have the voice that soooo many entomologist would kill to have, yet you go about conducting business instead of teaching everyone as you should be.

 

Response to #5. The fact that you're willing to contribute to the spread of an invasive species and then pay for any backlashes says more then enough about you.

Edited by Loops117, January 15 2018 - 11:53 AM.

[T.C.]

The fact you took the time to reply @antscanada says something about yourself. Maybe where you live, (and I didn't watch the whole video) placing them in the location you did may not be a "big deal." However it's the fact that video has 597k views. The chance of a released colony harming the ecosystem is slim, just the same as transporting queens and the chance of them escaping and thrive is slim. However with views like that, all of these kids will be releasing their ants assuming it's ok, causing a greater risk to the environment. Especially when you consider thousands of kids releasing captive ants into the wild. I stated that I commented in your video that this was irresponsible and shouldn't have been done. All of these kids started telling me why it was ok, or telling me I was "stupid." I don't care, but it just proves my point that all of these kids will be releasing captive ants in the future. I understand making the videos isn't easy, but you should attempt to make things right, by explaining in the next video why you shouldn't release captive ants. I can't but help agree with @Loops117 on this matter. Personal feelings in fact affected your better judgement.

[Connectimyrmex]

Yeah, I saw that video too and I was pretty shocked. 

To tell the truth, I did once release some Pseudomyrmex back in Hawaii, but that was before I was on this forum and learned that releasing introduced species is wrong.

[Superant33]

Yeah, Antscanada shouldn’t have released pharo ants. However, they are endemic to his area. No need to lynch him. It’s not like he released invicta or crazy ants in Hawaii.

[Martialis]

deleted 

Edited by Martialis, May 9 2019 - 3:18 PM.

[Superant33]

Fine. Established. He caused the environment no harm. I have kept them and invicta. Killed the pharaohs ants when I didn’t want them any longer. Fire ants I keep until the colony dies out. I am not agreeing with what he did, but he doesn’t deserve this much venom

[Loops117]

You guys should petition to have the video removed from youtube instead. You're not going to get him in any trouble, but you can stop someone else from any wrong doing.

[nurbs]

Fine. Established. He caused the environment no harm. I have kept them and invicta. Killed the pharaohs ants when I didn’t want them any longer. Fire ants I keep until the colony dies out. I am not agreeing with what he did, but he doesn’t deserve this much venom

 

The ant keeping community unfortunately is full of self-righteous individuals who feel the need to police others halfway around the globe through the Internet, in places which they know nothing about, with people they've never met, while influencing other armchair detectives into a global lynch mob because it makes them feel good about themselves in the comfort of their own home.

 

This thread needs to die. It does not belong on Formiculture. 

[Serafine]

We have a leader. someone who's looked up to by many many young ant keepers.
This leader runs GAN, who's very specific on not spreading invasive species.
Seems as though one of the big rules we're not supposed to break, was broken by said leader.

GAN sold Solenopsis invicta and even "unidentified black ants" before called out.
And while Pharao ants might be some sort of naturalized invader in south east Asia (like Tetramorium in most northern places) the Solenopsis invicta fire ant is an entirely different beast - it is NOT naturalized and eradicates native species to the point where it's the only kind of ant left.
 

Who cares if you can't bring yourself to killing a colony.
If you're gonna push rules, then you need to follow all of them yourself.

I don't think many people would have cared if the colony was set free secretly. But making a Youtube spectacle that gets half a million views out of it (with a very large percentage of underaged viewers) sets an example that will have effects for years to come. Many antkeepers, especially the underaged ones, cannot distinguish between native species, naturalized invaders and ants that are invasive ecological distasters.

Every kid that ordered some ants over the internet (facebook is full of illegal sellers that ship across state borders) and discovers that the ants quickly grow to an unmanagable size will now have a perfect example to point to and say "this famous youtuber set his pharao ants free, so it's okay for me to dump my red imported fire ants/argentine ants/bigheaded ants on a trash pile behind my house in Virginia/Paris/Pretoria".

It's not really the action itself that matters here (which is in fact meaningless on an ecologcial scale), it is the MESSAGE. And the message is "it's okay to release invasive ants".

Edited by Serafine, January 15 2018 - 1:57 PM.

[T.C.]

Fine. Established. He caused the environment no harm. I have kept them and invicta. Killed the pharaohs ants when I didn’t want them any longer. Fire ants I keep until the colony dies out. I am not agreeing with what he did, but he doesn’t deserve this much venom

The ant keeping community unfortunately is full of self-righteous individuals who feel the need to police others halfway around the globe through the Internet, in places which they know nothing about, with people they've never met, while influencing other armchair detectives into a global lynch mob because it makes them feel good about themselves in the comfort of their own home.

This thread needs to die. It does not belong on Formiculture.

I agree. Thread shouldn't have been created. Not that I don't think it's still wrong. I guess the only real concern is that how many people are now gonna release every colony they have. But yeah, we should drop this and for those who wish to further discuss it go elsewhere.

Edited by T.C., January 15 2018 - 2:20 PM.

[AntHUB]

The worst part is that there was multiple queens from a supercolony that he HELPED Spread not only this but he Put Them in an environment to thrive. He could have simply put them in an ideal nesting area. I find that Ants Australia nest tend to help cure mites.