13 replies to this topic

[drtrmiller]

I am seeking feedback regarding a change to the forum rules about buying/selling ants. In order to simplify the rule language so that all forum members may understand what is and isn't permitted, and so moderators may more effectively enforce the rule, the following language is proposed:

Proposed Rule 8:

Members must accurately represent their location in their Member Profile to participate in offers to buy, sell, trade, or otherwise distribute living ants of any caste or life stage. For members located in the United States, offers of live ants are only permitted between members who reside in the same U.S. state. Cross-border offers are not permitted between any members (participating members must reside in the same country or trading zone).

“Offer” is defined as any advertisement, thread, post, chat message, private message, or other transmission that occurs on Formiculture.com, including links to third-party sites or messaging systems where offers may potentially occur, with the intent of buying, selling, trading, or otherwise distributing ants from one place to another.

Please post your feedback and comments below.

Edited by drtrmiller, November 2 2017 - 6:50 PM.

[FeedTheAnts]

I like it.

[Spamdy]

I am confused on why Rules is not listed in the "Important Topics" section.

[drtrmiller]

I am confused on why Rules is not listed in the "Important Topics" section.

 

It's actually not a topic, but a static forum "page," so it can't currently be listed there.  It probably should be made into a topic for commenting/discussion.

Edited by drtrmiller, September 30 2017 - 4:41 PM.

[Serafine]

As if anyone would care.

You can write as much as you want in your pretty forum rules it didn't keep people like AlabamaAnter from illegally selling and shipping ants across the entire US and beyond.

As long as you don't take action against even the worst known repeat offenders your rules aren't worth the bits and bytes they're stored in.

Edited by Serafine, October 1 2017 - 11:10 AM.

[drtrmiller]

While you're correct that all rules ring hollow without proper enforcement, I would argue that the rules here are, in fact, faithfully enforced when problems are brought to the attention of the mods and admins.  In the example you provided, the user was caught and warned for breaking the forum rules.  Looking at the member's profile, they haven't even logged onto the forum in over 4 months. So I'm not really sure what point you were trying to make?

 

The problem with the current forum rule is that the part that moderators are tasked to enforce reads "...making any arrangements to illegally ship or transport ants is strictly forbidden on Formiculture.com."  I realized recently that the current rule essentially asks our moderators to research, interpret, and faithfully apply legal statutes and regulations from every jurisdiction worldwide—an impossible task.

 

In the most recent case, a member from Russia made an offer to buy ants from members in China and Southeast Asia.  Because we can't reasonably expect our moderators to meaningfully observe Russian and Chinese law, the proposed revision makes the rules about what is and isn't allowed on our forum clearer and easier for anyone to understand.  If the rule were to be changed as proposed, members would not be allowed to make or receive offers to or from members in other countries, because the standard would change from that which is legal, to a blanket ban on cross-border trade.

Edited by drtrmiller, October 1 2017 - 3:04 PM.

[Serafine]

AlabamaAnter was repeatedly (more than 4 times) caught illegally selling ants on the forums as well as on Discord (where he got banned for this and being a [censored] in general) and he STILL has access to the forums. Just think about what message that sends to other offenders.

 

Also does the European Union count as one country then? It would be a bit ridiculous if I could buy an ant colony from a shop in Spain or the UK but not trade with someone just across the border in France or Austria. And would be redirecting people from the EU to legal EU ant shops an issue, too? If anything that would just encourage shady trading by refusing to show them legal ways to obtain ants.

 

 

Also I know for a fact that some well-known people here are still illegally selling ants across the US, are you gonna write them some angry lines telling them how angry you are and then do nothing, too?

Edited by dspdrew, November 2 2017 - 6:58 PM.
removed profanity

[ctantkeeper]

I agree, we should update / simplify the language of the rules we have in place here in order to avoid confusion. 

[drtrmiller]

AlabamaAnter was repeatedly (more than 4 times) caught illegally selling ants on the forums as well as on Discord (where he got banned for this and being a dick in general) and he STILL has access to the forums. Just think about what message that sends to other offenders.

 

Also does the European Union count as one country then? It would be a bit ridiculous if I could buy an ant colony from a shop in Spain or the UK but not trade with someone just across the border in France or Austria. And would be redirecting people from the EU to legal EU ant shops an issue, too? If anything that would just encourage shady trading by refusing to show them legal ways to obtain ants.

 

 

Also I know for a fact that some well-known people here are still illegally selling ants across the US, are you gonna write them some angry lines telling them how angry you are and then do nothing, too?

 

Because customs and duties are not assessed on goods transported from one EU member state to another, they count as a single "trading zone," and thus members of EU member states could continue to make offers among one another here on the forum.  The "trading zone" language was included in the rule for that reason.

 

While it is easy to say that the member to which you're referring wasn't adequately punished—by virtue of the fact that they remain a registered member of the forum—the outcomes of investigations of members who break the forum rules are kept private, so you really don't know what the member has access to.  For example, users who repeatedly break forum rules may lose the ability to create new posts or threads, access the chat room, contact other members via private messages, or use other features of the forum.  Some restrictions may last for a certain length of time, while others may be permanent.

 

Ultimately, the purpose of this thread is to obtain feedback on the actual text of the rule itself.  Any discussion related to how rules are implemented should be discussed privately with forum administrators.  If one has evidence that a member here is using the forum or forum features to illegally trade ants, one has the option to submit the evidence to any moderator or admin, who will then decide what to do with that information.

[Batspiderfish]

Yes, I agree that minimal information should be a requirement for trading threads. Omitting that information is an invitation for both informed and uninformed hobbyists to break conservational law and the rules of the forum.

Whether or not illegal trade should be treated with the same harshness as "legible English" is another matter, but I think that reducing this avenue of willful ignorance is a step in the right direction.

Edited by Batspiderfish, October 2 2017 - 4:54 PM.

[dspdrew]

Whether or not illegal trade should be treated with the same harshness as "legible English" is another matter, ...

 

Good point. Maybe breaking that particular rule should result in two warning points.

[sgheaton]

Here's my drivers license and phone/water/electrical bill to prove my residency. What else ya' wanting?

[Connectimyrmex]

This rule sounds good. 

[dspdrew]

Here's my drivers license and phone/water/electrical bill to prove my residency. What else ya' wanting?

 

Nothing more specific than state or province is required.