2124 replies to this topic

[ConcordAntman]

A curious observation. I rotate the protein source for my colonies (freeze-dried mealworms, flightless fruit flies, raw chicken, raw beef, raw pork, apple slices, banana slices). I got a supply of live mealworms today and fed all 3 colonies. I didn’t cut up the mealworms but used a dull blade to score their exoskeleton is several places while killing them, then placed them in feeding dishes. Workers from my two C. pennsylvanicus colonies tore into the mealworms while the C. americanus colony paid little attention to their potential meal. After 30 minutes I used a blade to cut into the mealworm’s exoskeleton to expose its internal structures, then the C. americanus got cracking. They dismembered the mealworm and took it into the nest piecemeal (I was hoping to avoid this by not cutting the mealworm into pieces at first).

My observation; C. pennsylvanicus seems to be the more aggressive omnivore. Across two different colonies, four or five workers attacked the mealworm and then fed the colony while 1 or 2 C. americanus workers broke apart the mealworm only after I’d cut out a section of its exoskeleton. Only with its “flesh” exposed did the C. americanus show an interest in the mealworm. C. americanus seemed less interested in subduing a mortally wounded insect for food than C. pennsylvanicus. Anyone else notice this behavior or am I making something out of nothing?

[fmoreira60]

I somewhat also experience that. My americanus colony also don't always go for the meal worm right away while my nova just attack it. Sometimes my americanus just ignore the food. Just an observation.

[noebl1]

FYI there's an interesting theory being tested that older Camponotus colonies have a symbiotic bacteria that they need to survive long term.  Lab testing showed that they need NH2 in survive as it converts it to amino acids.  The older colonies of Camponotus eventually fails as in our home environments, they aren't getting the NH2 they need.  In the wild they are believed to feeding on bird droppings. This was from a talk a couple weeks ago from one of the USDA insect experts deciphering a published paper for us on the Ants & Ant-Keeping discord server.  Right now there's a handful of members trying out using urine (yes pee) in feeders in colonies that are 2-3 years old, and observing they are feeding heavily on the pee.  Pretty cool stuff

 

Pretty status quo here, somehow I seem to be missing the Aphaenogaster flights this season, not sure how.  Hopefully soon

[ConcordAntman]

FYI there's an interesting theory being tested that older Camponotus colonies have a symbiotic bacteria that they need to survive long term.  Lab testing showed that they need NH2 in survive as it converts it to amino acids.  The older colonies of Camponotus eventually fails as in our home environments, they aren't getting the NH2 they need.  In the wild they are believed to feeding on bird droppings. This was from a talk a couple weeks ago from one of the USDA insect experts deciphering a published paper for us on the Ants & Ant-Keeping discord server.  Right now there's a handful of members trying out using urine (yes pee) in feeders in colonies that are 2-3 years old, and observing they are feeding heavily on the pee.  Pretty cool stuff
 
Pretty status quo here, somehow I seem to be missing the Aphaenogaster flights this season, not sure how.  Hopefully soon

Any way you could throw up a link to the paper that was discussed?

[noebl1]

 

 

Any way you could throw up a link to the paper that was discussed?

 

 

I asked him tonight, he works at the USDA (he may be here on FC, not sure), he said "It's from a conversation I had with the author one obe of the sequencing efforts for Blochmannia combined with her observations We took from the nutritional upgrading paper"

 

https://en.wikipedia...iki/Blochmannia

 

They are pretty excited about the experiment, I'll share as I know more  

[ConcordAntman]

Noebl1, Interesting stuff! If Blochmannia is in a symbiotic relationship with C. pennsylvanicus, the founding queen would have it in her gut already right? She’d pass it to her nanitics through trophallaxis and the same mechanism would spread it to the colony at large. Does the Blochmannia deplete over time? Does it need to be replenished?

[noebl1]

Noebl1, Interesting stuff! If Blochmannia is in a symbiotic relationship with C. pennsylvanicus, the founding queen would have it in her gut already right? She’d pass it to her nanitics through trophallaxis and the same mechanism would spread it to the colony at large. Does the Blochmannia deplete over time? Does it need to be replenished?

 

 

The idea is that the Blochmannia eventually die overtime, and then as a result the Camponotus slowly die off as well.  They are using urine for the testing, but some have observed them harvesting certain bird droppings as well.  In areas where not a lot of birds, lizard droppings are also suspected sources of NH2.

[ANTdrew]

Would feeding wild caught ants to a colony be a way of exposing them to these probiotic bacteria? That would obviosly have risks of its own, though.

[noebl1]

Would feeding wild caught ants to a colony be a way of exposing them to these probiotic bacteria? That would obviosly have risks of its own, though.

 

Funny you mention that, people wondered if that may help too... though has other challenges like risk of mite exposure, etc.  One thought was you may be able to use a wild ant to rekick the bacteria if they fail, and then begin supplemental NH2 feeding.  Still VERY early in their experimenting for sure.  I thought it was interesting as ConcordAntman and fmoreira60 were talking about their Camponotus.

 

I got a couple Pogonomyrmex occidentalis now that legal to ship in the US.  One from Colorado is doing great, second one from California isn't doing too well, looks like she was damaged during shipping and looks to be slowly dying  

 

Also put in a couple permits with the USDA as well to try to get a couple ants, one from NM, another from FL.  One of the other members from NM got a permit approved for C. pennsylvanicus, so sending some down to him as I had a few extras from some weird July 21/22/23 flights.  If my permit is approved, he's sending me up some C. fragilis as he also has a ton of them. 

[ConcordAntman]

What about feeding our colonies foods high in amines? After your link, I searched for amine rich foods. Oddly enough, the most reliable source I came up with was this pamphlet on low amine diets. It highlights the foods rich in amines though. http://www.wch.sa.go..._Amine_Diet.pdf

[ConcordAntman]

I put my colonies down for diapause over the weekend. The wine cooler is set at 50. I’ll drop it down to 47 next week. It’s been 18 months since founding. I didn’t see dramatic growth in any of the colonies over the spring and summer. My two surviving C. pennsylvanicus colonies are still soldiering on. Though they are all fed the same diet, one still seems a more successful forager than the other with the more successfully foraging colony having a bigger brood pile and overall population (20-30). My other C. pennsylvanicus colony has a smaller brood pile and just seems to have maintained it’s population with just enough growth to match the loss of nanitics. Both are starting diapause with a pile of eggs and early instar larvae. My adopted C. americanus colony also seems to soldier on. Though they keep a cleaner nest than C. pennsylvanicus, I find them “picky eaters”. I fed them the same diet I gave to my C. pennsylvanicus (rotating live mealworms, raw chicken, rehydrated mealworms, apple slices, and on demand hummingbird nectar) but they didn’t appear to have any interest. I had about 10 of the 20-30 workers die off. In a panic, I tried to supplement them with the Bhatkar diet (which none of them touched). I even tried adding bird droppings as an amine source, all to no avail. They are starting diapause without any brood pile. If my colonies survive this diapause I’ll add fruit flies to the diet rotation. 

[akaant]

My guess it might be a lack of carbs that caused die off. I feed all my colonies sunburst ant nectar, sugar water, fruit, dubia roaches (frozen) and chopped up meal worms. I found humming bird nectar hit or miss. When the next season arrives try feeding them more frequently the first few weeks.

[ConcordAntman]

My hummingbird nectar was homemade. 1 cup sugar to 4 cups water. I also mixed in banana slices and tried strawberry slices too but they seemed to favor the apples and banana over the strawberries. With the Sunburst nectar, did you alternate it or provide it in addition to sugar water?

[akaant]

alternated weekly.

[ConcordAntman]

Just did my first weekly check. It seems the girls are surviving. I added some water to the water towers and refilled the feeders with fresh sugar water. Dropping the temperature to 48 for the rest of diapause. 

[ConcordAntman]

Checking in again. My charges are surviving diapause thusfar. the C. pennsylvanicus colonies both have some larvae, none though for my C. americanus. Surprisingly the some of the C. americanus were active when I changed out their sugar water. They all appear to have full gasters. I'll keep checking them every 10-14 days and plan for a spring thaw in late February. 

 

I'd meant to get this out before Thanksgiving but things got hectic around the house. I'm still fascinated by these little creatures. I'm glad to have gotten through the past 18 months with them. Thanks to everyone who's helped me out. I wish a happy holiday season to all and great anting in 2020!

Edited by ConcordAntman, December 17 2019 - 6:03 PM.

[noebl1]

Checking in again. My charges are surviving diapause thusfar. the C. pennsylvanicus colonies both have some larvae, none though for my C. americanus. Surprisingly the some of the C. americanus were active when I changed out their sugar water. They all appear to have full gasters. I'll keep checking them every 10-14 days and plan for a spring thaw in late February. 

 

 

Nice!!  I haven't checked on my C. nearcticus yet, though I am doing diapause differently this year for me C. americanus.  I noticed while other Camponotus at 45F go pretty dormant, and often look dead, my C. americanus are quite alert, including the queens at 45F.  I suspect since they are a soil dwelling species, and can dig quite deep if required, they may be ok with a bit warmer temps.  I'm trying this season at 50-55F for them to see what happens.  They are idle like they were at 45F which is interesting/surprised me tbh.

 

Both of my Pogonomyrmex occidentalis colonies are still not in diapause, but it's near.  Still have a handful of brood waiting to eclose and they will go in at 50-55F as well.   P. imparis will be going in soon as well, likely next week for a 1-2mos break.

[ConcordAntman]

Just checked the brood again. Without the severe cold snap we had last winter, it seems my colonies are surviving diapause thus far. Still looking at warming them up the week of the 24th. 

[noebl1]

I've started pulling somewhere test tubes are dry, pulled my Camponotus nearcticus over the weekend:

 

 

My others are still in, including my other Camponotus.  My C. americanus went thru at 50F this season, will probably keep them in thru Feb and likely March. I lost my 2017 P. imparis that laid 3 times for the silliest reason... they refused to move test tubes and dried out.  I have 2 others from 2019 I am hoping to see if following the same procedure for a yearly cycle if they lay again.  My 2017 colony was basically a dud as she laid 5 eggs the first season, and about that there after. Compared to the 2019 P. imparis I had that had 20-30 workers going into diapause already.  Lasius colonies are looking good, they are such an easy going species

 

My Pogonomyrmex occidentalis are no where near diapause as still producing brood, so both colonies may end up skipping this season.  Crazy species.

[ConcordAntman]

In New Mexico and Colorado this week. Plan to pull my colonies out of hibernation by the 28th.