84 replies to this topic

[BMM]

 

and then, you know, release the ant into the wild. After all, it's not like we've created an ecologically destructive species. It's not like it'll outcompete other species or anything.

 

It's the same thing as releasing a collie, pug, bloodhound, or chihuahua into the wild.  When things are selectively bred in captivity, they get very good at being domesticated at the cost of suppressing, damaging, or losing key survival genes.  Find me one example of selective breeding causing "an ecologically destructive species"!  That doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense because the ancestor has all of your genes already.  If they're not expressed in the wild, that's because nature has forced them to be recessive.  You don't add DNA through selective breeding.  If anything, you diminish and damage it.

 

I think the opposite problem might be more concerning. Imagine what an ant species bred to reproduce readily and thrive in captivity would do if it got loose in your house. It'd be quite the pest I imagine. It's even more worrying when you think about it being derived from fire ants.

 

That said, I don't think ants are a very good subject for selective breeding. Not only are their "generations" significantly longer than most insects, even many mammals, but their eusociality will make it very hard to isolate traits or specific behavior. However, even if you don't have any success with that, it sounds like more information on artificially encouraging ants to mate would be helpful to the community.

[Works4TheGood]

While those are some great points you brought up, we shouldn't compare a mammal with a complex brain to an insect with mere ganglia. Dog breeds also are developed over at least five generations.
 
By "ecologically destructive," I mean "pushes native and wild species out."  Bovines, sheep, goats, and pigs all did this.

If we shouldn't compare mammals to insects, then we really can't use bovines, sheep, goats, and pigs in the discussion either. However, I don't accept that they can't be compared. DNA and basic gene expression principles apply equally accross all life forms regardless of the level of brain complexity.

In the case of the mammals you stated, you're introducing a weakened form of an invasive species. In my case, you're reintroducing a weakened form of a species back into its native habitat. These are very very different scenarios There is no danger here; none at all.

[Works4TheGood]

and then, you know, release the ant into the wild. After all, it's not like we've created an ecologically destructive species. It's not like it'll outcompete other species or anything.

 
It's the same thing as releasing a collie, pug, bloodhound, or chihuahua into the wild.  When things are selectively bred in captivity, they get very good at being domesticated at the cost of suppressing, damaging, or losing key survival genes.  Find me one example of selective breeding causing "an ecologically destructive species"!  That doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense because the ancestor has all of your genes already.  If they're not expressed in the wild, that's because nature has forced them to be recessive.  You don't add DNA through selective breeding.  If anything, you diminish and damage it.

I think the opposite problem might be more concerning. Imagine what an ant species bred to reproduce readily and thrive in captivity would do if it got loose in your house. It'd be quite the pest I imagine. It's even more worrying when you think about it being derived from fire ants.
 
That said, I don't think ants are a very good subject for selective breeding. Not only are their "generations" significantly longer than most insects, even many mammals, but their eusociality will make it very hard to isolate traits or specific behavior. However, even if you don't have any success with that, it sounds like more information on artificially encouraging ants to mate would be helpful to the community.

That's an interesting thought. ... I suppose that the reason why I'm not worried about my present colonies escaping is because they would have no known source of sustainable moisture. I would expect that captively bred ants would die too since they're bred to have their clean water handed to them all the time.

[Batspiderfish]

In the interest of genetic principles:

Mutation occurs from the rearrangement, deletion, OR insertion of base pairs. Breeding is not limited by the genome of the "wild-type" organism, although the method does hinge on what the breeder is capable of observing and selecting for.

Recessive and dominant traits are governed by allelic combinations as well as the properties of the genes within, and are unrelated to selective pressure.

Gene flow is the principle by which alleles are passed from one population to another. Wolves that breed with dogs create offspring that are a little of both, in varying ways, and these in turn can pass alleles to one subspecies or the other (not to be confused with hybrid, which a dog-wolf would technically not be.) Even though a dog and a wolf are the same species, they are not genetically identical. In theory, domesticated ants would be able to pass domesticated alleles amongst their wild counterparts. We don't know what the consequences of this would be at all, but I'm not exactly expecting this:

Edited by Batspiderfish, February 19 2017 - 11:04 PM.

[CrazyLegs]

That movie blew my mind when I was about 5 years old.

[Martialis]

In the interest of genetic principles:

Mutation occurs from the rearrangement, deletion, OR insertion of base pairs. Breeding is not limited by the genome of the "wild-type" organism, although the method does hinge on what the breeder is capable of observing and selecting for.

Recessive and dominant traits are governed by allelic combinations as well as the properties of the genes within, and are unrelated to selective pressure.

Gene flow is the principle by which alleles are passed from one population to another. Wolves that breed with dogs create offspring that are a little of both, in varying ways, and these in turn can pass alleles to one subspecies or the other (not to be confused with hybrid, which a dog-wolf would technically not be.) Even though a dog and a wolf are the same species, they are not genetically identical. In theory, domesticated ants would be able to pass domesticated alleles amongst their wild counterparts. We don't know what the consequences of this would be at all, but I'm not exactly expecting this:

 

rofl... I'd think you're right. 

[Works4TheGood]

I really don't think we should bother talking about mutations and thus "domesticated alleles".  I'm hoping that that's what was meant by "... I'm not exactly expecting this".  The probability of positive mutations occurring in nature dwarf that of captivity by a factor of billions.  We should be infinitely more worried about the dangers of wild mutations developing than we should captive ones, especially since wild strains are already at an advantage in that their genes are already perfectly balanced to thrive in the wild.  Like you suggested, the "mutation" topic is just Hollywood.

 

When you think about it from another angle, if folks aren't worried about inadvertently creating a breed of super mealworms or orchids (both of which are not native) or creating a breed of super corn or house flies, then is all of the concern over breeding local ants really justified?  The same condemnation should hold true of everything we breed in captivity, but it's not because it's actually safe.

 

I'm really quite convinced that there's absolutely no danger at all.

Edited by Works4TheGood, February 20 2017 - 8:45 AM.

[Alabama Anter]

I really don't think we should bother talking about mutations and thus "domesticated alleles". I'm hoping that that's what was meant by "... I'm not exactly expecting this". The probability of positive mutations occurring in nature dwarf that of captivity by a factor of billions. We should be infinitely more worried about the dangers of wild mutations developing than we should captive ones, especially since wild strains are already at an advantage in that their genes are already perfectly balanced to thrive in the wild. Like you suggested, the "mutation" topic is just Hollywood.

When you think about it from another angle, if folks aren't worried about inadvertently creating a breed of super mealworms or orchids (both of which are not native) or creating a breed of super corn or house flies, then is all of the concern over breeding local ants really justified? The same condemnation should hold true of everything we breed in captivity, but it's not because it's actually safe.

I'm really quite convinced that there's absolutely no danger at all.

I agree

[Batspiderfish]

"Positive mutations occurring in nature dwarf that of captivity by a factor of billions?" That is completely unfounded. You'll find that everything I've said checks out. This is what I went to school for.

The mechanism for passing bred traits onto wild populations does exist, but we are still too primitive to understand what the consequences are. I don't think that domesticated ants warrant a ton of concern right now, for a few reasons.

Edited by Batspiderfish, February 20 2017 - 12:43 PM.

[Works4TheGood]

"Positive mutations occurring in nature dwarf that of captivity by a factor of billions?" That is completely unfounded. You'll find that everything I've said checks out. This is what I went to school for.

The mechanism for passing bred traits onto wild populations does exist, but we are still too primitive to understand what the consequences are. I don't think that domesticated ants warrant a ton of concern right now, for a few reasons.

 

Bat, I think we're misunderstanding each other because I don't challenge your principles at all.  Let's settle up:  my domain of discourse is specifically our new hypothetical ant-breed.  None of us have an F2.  In fact, it's possible that none exists at all, which is mostly a side effect of the fact that there's no money in it.  So, if you compare the probability that my 15 queens (and whoever helps me) passes down a positive mutation to the probability that one is passed down in a wild ant breed, the odds are astronomically ("factor of billions") in favor of the wild simply due to the difference in sample sizes.  That's what I was referring to with my comment.  Now, if we were to talk about pigs, then the odds are totally reversed and my statement would be glaringly false, but my domain of discourse is/was just ants as it relates to the hypothetical breed of ants.

[Works4TheGood]

In a nutshell, my argument is this:  if it's okay to breed dogs, pigs, corn, orchids, mealworms, trout, or anything else in captivity, then it's okay to breed ants too.  This is because the genetic principles which determine the risks remain the same regardless of the species.

[gcsnelling]

While those are some great points you brought up, we shouldn't compare a mammal with a complex brain to an insect with mere ganglia. Dog breeds also are developed over at least five generations.

 

By "ecologically destructive," I mean "pushes native and wild species out."  Bovines, sheep, goats, and pigs all did this.

You have no idea if it would be invasive or destructive. Typical irresponsible suggestion that is becoming far too common.

Edited by gcsnelling, February 20 2017 - 4:07 PM.

[Martialis]

 

While those are some great points you brought up, we shouldn't compare a mammal with a complex brain to an insect with mere ganglia. Dog breeds also are developed over at least five generations.

 

By "ecologically destructive," I mean "pushes native and wild species out."  Bovines, sheep, goats, and pigs all did this.

You have no idea if it would be invasive or destructive. Typical irresponsible suggestion that is becoming far too common.

 

 

In retrospect, I can see how it seems rash.  I'm sorry if I sounded rude or uneducated. I was trying to convey how breeding quick developing and invasive species (i. e. Solenopsis invicta/geminata) would not be a good choice to attempt to "cultivate."

[Works4TheGood]

Solenopsis invicta in general is really easy to breed. I did this at like January. What happened was it rained the day before and it was abiut 63 degrees. I dug up a few nests and only found 3 colonies who had alates. I picked 2 males and 1 queen. I held them together with tweezers, and the male seduced the female and quickly linked their gasters together. The second male did not.

 

Getting back to the topic at hand, I'd really like try to replicate what Alabama Anter achieved (above) to determine if the same technique is viable across species lines.  More specifically, I'd like to find some local species of ants that mate in the air and then hold them together with tweezers during a nuptial flight and see if they mate.  If anyone is willing, I'm asking for help with performing this experiment.  To anyone who has any information, please feel free to post it here.  Thanks!

Edited by Works4TheGood, February 21 2017 - 6:18 AM.

[SamKeepsAnts]

Why don't you just get a polygynous colony and harvest queens? then you wouldn't need to breed them yourself. I am trying to do that with some monomorium eratogyna and cardiocondyla mauritanica colonies.

[T.C.]

 

 

 

Getting back to the topic at hand, I'd really like try to replicate what Alabama Anter achieved (above) to determine if the same technique is viable across species lines.  More specifically, I'd like to find some local species of ants that mate in the air and then hold them together with tweezers during a nuptial flight and see if they mate.  If anyone is willing, I'm asking for help with performing this experiment.  To anyone who has any information, please feel free to post it here.  Thanks!

 

I have been watching this thread. I will attempt it next time I see a nuptial flight. I can catch plenty of fertile queens in the summer, but I am more interested in the experimental part of it. However,  now that this topic has been brought up, I figure I might as well say, I really can't tell the difference between lasius alienus and lasius neoniger. I can compare a colony and see that they are different species, but the queens I cannot. They are both very abundant in my area, so it got me to thinking. Say I pick up a lasius alienus queen, and find a lasius neoniger drone, and I try to have them mate with the tweezer trick. Lets just say it works, (small chance) and then what happens. I know quite a bit on the scientific level as I enjoy it and read into it alot, and if I am right the drone would for sure fertilize the queen and now you have a mixed species. At the same time, I find myself wondering if something like this already happened between these two species. I have seen nuptial flights of both of the species occur at the same time. And, I really don't think their hasn't been at least a few times drones latched onto the wrong species. Or do they now it's a different species somehow?

[BMM]

Tapinoma sessile are polygynous, mate in the nest, and supposedly their colonies aren't aggressive towards one another. That might make them somewhat ideal to harvest from.

[Works4TheGood]

 

 

 

 

Getting back to the topic at hand, I'd really like try to replicate what Alabama Anter achieved (above) to determine if the same technique is viable across species lines.  More specifically, I'd like to find some local species of ants that mate in the air and then hold them together with tweezers during a nuptial flight and see if they mate.  If anyone is willing, I'm asking for help with performing this experiment.  To anyone who has any information, please feel free to post it here.  Thanks!

 

I have been watching this thread. I will attempt it next time I see a nuptial flight. I can catch plenty of fertile queens in the summer, but I am more interested in the experimental part of it. However,  now that this topic has been brought up, I figure I might as well say, I really can't tell the difference between lasius alienus and lasius neoniger. I can compare a colony and see that they are different species, but the queens I cannot. They are both very abundant in my area, so it got me to thinking. Say I pick up a lasius alienus queen, and find a lasius neoniger drone, and I try to have them mate with the tweezer trick. Lets just say it works, (small chance) and then what happens. I know quite a bit on the scientific level as I enjoy it and read into it alot, and if I am right the drone would for sure fertilize the queen and now you have a mixed species. At the same time, I find myself wondering if something like this already happened between these two species. I have seen nuptial flights of both of the species occur at the same time. And, I really don't think their hasn't been at least a few times drones latched onto the wrong species. Or do they now it's a different species somehow?

 

 

Thanks for volunteering to help!  This effort will take a lot work and I'm grateful for any assistance I receive. 

 

It's scientifically possible that your experiment may result in a queen capable of breeding hybrid specimens.  But by definition of "species", if any progeny of the queen survive, they would all presumably be sterile.  It's important to note that it would be difficult to know for sure whether your queen is producing hybrids or not due to the complication that the queen has probably already been fertilized once before by another male of the correct species.  That is, unless you can catch the queen on the ground just before takeoff.

[Works4TheGood]

Why don't you just get a polygynous colony and harvest queens? then you wouldn't need to breed them yourself. I am trying to do that with some monomorium eratogyna and cardiocondyla mauritanica colonies.

Hi Sam!  I'm actually not sure that I fully understand your suggestion.  It sounds like you may actually have a goal other than creating a breed of ants that's easily bred in captivity.  Am I misunderstanding you?  Can you please help me to understand your suggestion better?

[T.C.]

 

 

 

 

 

Getting back to the topic at hand, I'd really like try to replicate what Alabama Anter achieved (above) to determine if the same technique is viable across species lines.  More specifically, I'd like to find some local species of ants that mate in the air and then hold them together with tweezers during a nuptial flight and see if they mate.  If anyone is willing, I'm asking for help with performing this experiment.  To anyone who has any information, please feel free to post it here.  Thanks!

 

I have been watching this thread. I will attempt it next time I see a nuptial flight. I can catch plenty of fertile queens in the summer, but I am more interested in the experimental part of it. However,  now that this topic has been brought up, I figure I might as well say, I really can't tell the difference between lasius alienus and lasius neoniger. I can compare a colony and see that they are different species, but the queens I cannot. They are both very abundant in my area, so it got me to thinking. Say I pick up a lasius alienus queen, and find a lasius neoniger drone, and I try to have them mate with the tweezer trick. Lets just say it works, (small chance) and then what happens. I know quite a bit on the scientific level as I enjoy it and read into it alot, and if I am right the drone would for sure fertilize the queen and now you have a mixed species. At the same time, I find myself wondering if something like this already happened between these two species. I have seen nuptial flights of both of the species occur at the same time. And, I really don't think their hasn't been at least a few times drones latched onto the wrong species. Or do they now it's a different species somehow?

 

 

Thanks for volunteering to help!  This effort will take a lot work and I'm grateful for any assistance I receive. 

 

It's scientifically possible that your experiment may result in a queen capable of breeding hybrid specimens.  But by definition of "species", if any progeny of the queen survive, they would all presumably be sterile.  It's important to note that it would be difficult to know for sure whether your queen is producing hybrids or not due to the complication that the queen has probably already been fertilized once before by another male of the correct species.  That is, unless you can catch the queen on the ground just before takeoff.

 

Happy to help.

 

From my experience, especially in lasius neoniger species, they will sit in the nest entrance up to an hour before any flights take place. So if she does end up laying fertile eggs, it will for sure be from the experiment.