84 replies to this topic

[Georgeev]

http://antfarm.yuku....ts-in-Captivity

Maybe this is helpful

[LC3]

I thought of this in the past.My idea is that if we can put a lot of colonies of the same species in one big room and give them the perfect environment(temp,humidity etc. )Nuptial flights will occur.So I think we can breed ants.But i don't know if its possible (maybe is)breeding different species together or changing their looks(morphs)etc...This is very common in other pets like reptiles.But if breeding ants becomes a thing be sure that ant keeping will be a ton different

Although breeding ants via a giant room with the right conditions is certainly plausible if done right, breeding different species is going to be much more challenging, as in pretty much impossible. One of the defining rules on what is a species and what isn't is their ability to make sexually viable offspring. You can probably breed subspecies but that would require quite a bit of hassle. Same with selective breeding, it would take a lot of time and effort to breed ants, especially when you need thousands of colonies and long maturation rates. 

 

Also the link to the latter post of yours seems broken.

Edited by LC3, February 19 2017 - 3:17 AM.

[antgenius123]

This is pretty interesting: http://link.springer...0040-012-0273-3

[Works4TheGood]

I think that Drew's posting of Retroman's technique offers us the simplest viable solution thus far, but I'm afraid that there are still a whole lot of unanswered questions.  Hopefully we'll eventually hear some more information there.  It's certainly a teaser that encourages the rest of us to dream.

 

http://www.formicult...s-in-captivity/ 

[Works4TheGood]

 

I thought of this in the past.My idea is that if we can put a lot of colonies of the same species in one big room and give them the perfect environment(temp,humidity etc. )Nuptial flights will occur.So I think we can breed ants.But i don't know if its possible (maybe is)breeding different species together or changing their looks(morphs)etc...This is very common in other pets like reptiles.But if breeding ants becomes a thing be sure that ant keeping will be a ton different

Although breeding ants via a giant room with the right conditions is certainly plausible if done right, breeding different species is going to be much more challenging, as in pretty much impossible. One of the defining rules on what is a species and what isn't is their ability to make sexually viable offspring. You can probably breed subspecies but that would require quite a bit of hassle. Same with selective breeding, it would take a lot of time and effort to breed ants, especially when you need thousands of colonies and long maturation rates. 

 

Also the link to the latter post of yours seems broken.

 

 

LC3 suggested that "... you need thousands of colonies".  It is true that maturation rates are a killer and that huge samples are best.  However, I suspect that it's feasible with a far smaller sample, but I would need help from people like you.  My first goal would be to selectively breed queens that are easy to breed.  Once we achieve this, then other doors start opening because it would reduce maturation rates.

[Canadian anter]

Dan, Retroman's method involves wild stock. To selectively breed ants, you need multiple colonies in captivity

[Alabama Anter]

Solenopsis invicta in general is really easy to breed. I did this at like January. What happened was it rained the day before and it was abiut 63 degrees. I dug up a few nests and only found 3 colonies who had alates. I picked 2 males and 1 queen. I held them together with tweezers, and the male seduced the female and quickly linked their gasters together. The second male did not.

[dspdrew]

BTW, I should have mentioned this, but the ants that Retroman breeds mate on the ground. I don't think you're going to have any luck with ants that actually fly when they mate.

[Works4TheGood]

BTW, I should have mentioned this, but the ants that Retroman breeds mate on the ground. I don't think you're going to have any luck with ants that actually fly when they mate.

 

Drew, thanks for the caveat.  That considerably complicates things.  

[Works4TheGood]

Solenopsis invicta in general is really easy to breed. I did this at like January. What happened was it rained the day before and it was abiut 63 degrees. I dug up a few nests and only found 3 colonies who had alates. I picked 2 males and 1 queen. I held them together with tweezers, and the male seduced the female and quickly linked their gasters together. The second male did not.

That's both bizarre and potentially very useful information since they normally breed in the air.  Perhaps many ant species can be bred in captivity by simply growing the colonies until they produce alates.  Then, when the time is right, the alates are extracted from the nest and coerced to mate as you just described.  Does that sound do-able?

Edited by Works4TheGood, February 19 2017 - 10:30 AM.

[Alabama Anter]

Solenopsis invicta in general is really easy to breed. I did this at like January. What happened was it rained the day before and it was abiut 63 degrees. I dug up a few nests and only found 3 colonies who had alates. I picked 2 males and 1 queen. I held them together with tweezers, and the male seduced the female and quickly linked their gasters together. The second male did not.

That's both bizarre and potentially very useful information since they normally breed in the air. Perhaps many ant species can be bred in captivity by simply growing the colonies until they produce alates. Then, when the time is right, the alates are extracted from the nest and coerced to mate as you just described. Does that sound do-able?

Yeah that is a good idea. Flight mating I feel like is near impossible.

[LC3]

 

 

I thought of this in the past.My idea is that if we can put a lot of colonies of the same species in one big room and give them the perfect environment(temp,humidity etc. )Nuptial flights will occur.So I think we can breed ants.But i don't know if its possible (maybe is)breeding different species together or changing their looks(morphs)etc...This is very common in other pets like reptiles.But if breeding ants becomes a thing be sure that ant keeping will be a ton different

Although breeding ants via a giant room with the right conditions is certainly plausible if done right, breeding different species is going to be much more challenging, as in pretty much impossible. One of the defining rules on what is a species and what isn't is their ability to make sexually viable offspring. You can probably breed subspecies but that would require quite a bit of hassle. Same with selective breeding, it would take a lot of time and effort to breed ants, especially when you need thousands of colonies and long maturation rates. 

 

Also the link to the latter post of yours seems broken.

 

 

LC3 suggested that "... you need thousands of colonies".  It is true that maturation rates are a killer and that huge samples are best.  However, I suspect that it's feasible with a far smaller sample, but I would need help from people like you.  My first goal would be to selectively breed queens that are easy to breed.  Once we achieve this, then other doors start opening because it would reduce maturation rates.

 

Yes, but for long term success, you would need a lot of colonies in order to raise your genetic diversity, especially for queens that may only mate once. introducing wild alates in order to solve this issue could possibly completely reverse any progress you have made.

[Works4TheGood]

LC3, if we can develop a repeatable technique for mating ants (and that's a HUGE "if"), then we can also hopefully exchange stock with one another (within state lines of course).  Doing it all on my own is admittedly impossible, just as you're suggesting.  

 

That said, if we can perfect the art of mating a given species of ants, I'm pretty confident that each of us could take their own breed from to an F2 in under a decade, without any inbreeding, and only ever having 15 colonies at one time.   The hope is that by the very nature of the experiment, breeding becomes easier with each successive generation.  And, we can share generations in between too as long as we always document the lineage.

[Martialis]

 

I thought of this in the past.My idea is that if we can put a lot of colonies of the same species in one big room and give them the perfect environment(temp,humidity etc. )Nuptial flights will occur.So I think we can breed ants.But i don't know if its possible (maybe is)breeding different species together or changing their looks(morphs)etc...This is very common in other pets like reptiles.But if breeding ants becomes a thing be sure that ant keeping will be a ton different

Although breeding ants via a giant room with the right conditions is certainly plausible if done right, breeding different species is going to be much more challenging, as in pretty much impossible. One of the defining rules on what is a species and what isn't is their ability to make sexually viable offspring. You can probably breed subspecies but that would require quite a bit of hassle. Same with selective breeding, it would take a lot of time and effort to breed ants, especially when you need thousands of colonies and long maturation rates. 

 

Also the link to the latter post of yours seems broken.

 

 

 

I thought of this in the past.My idea is that if we can put a lot of colonies of the same species in one big room and give them the perfect environment(temp,humidity etc. )Nuptial flights will occur.So I think we can breed ants.But i don't know if its possible (maybe is)breeding different species together or changing their looks(morphs)etc...This is very common in other pets like reptiles.But if breeding ants becomes a thing be sure that ant keeping will be a ton different

Although breeding ants via a giant room with the right conditions is certainly plausible if done right, breeding different species is going to be much more challenging, as in pretty much impossible. One of the defining rules on what is a species and what isn't is their ability to make sexually viable offspring. You can probably breed subspecies but that would require quite a bit of hassle. Same with selective breeding, it would take a lot of time and effort to breed ants, especially when you need thousands of colonies and long maturation rates. 

 

Also the link to the latter post of yours seems broken.

 

 

What about mules and hinnies?

[Works4TheGood]

Solenopsis invicta in general is really easy to breed. I did this at like January. What happened was it rained the day before and it was abiut 63 degrees. I dug up a few nests and only found 3 colonies who had alates. I picked 2 males and 1 queen. I held them together with tweezers, and the male seduced the female and quickly linked their gasters together. The second male did not.

 

So it looks like I need to do some homework.  Here's what I need to figure out:

1. Are there any local ant species which, if captured during a nuptial flight, will instinctively mate when held closely together with tweezers?
2. If so, will the same technique work for alates that are captive bred?
3. If so, are captive bred alates only receptive/viable during a natural nuptial flight, or can they be mated at other times of the year too?  Maybe this could be altered using selective breeding?

I certainly welcome everyone to help find answers to these questions!!!

[LC3]

 I think it's certainly possible to selectively breed ants in captivity, although the project would require a lot of resources. I think the specific trait you are trying to breed will also influence your success rate.

 

As far as I'm aware, flying doesn't have an effect on the willingness of an alate to mate, it's just a method of dispersion and better chance at finding a mate. So I assume it will work for captive bred alates.

 

Also Martialis, that is only one of the rules that is nearly guaranteed to get an organism a rank as it's own species (i.e lots of insects can only be identified by looking at their genitals) but isn't the sole or the only universal rule. Taxonomy is really just a system humans came up with to better understand life and nature is in no obligation to follow.  

Edited by LC3, February 19 2017 - 5:18 PM.

[Works4TheGood]

LC3, I feel that our initial goal as an ant keeping community should be simply this: to create a breed of ants that mature rapidly and breed readily in captivity.  Once we've mastered that, we can try to transforms our little wolves into collies, pugs, bloodhounds, chihuahuas, etc..  

[Martialis]

and then, you know, release the ant into the wild. After all, it's not like we've created an ecologically destructive species. It's not like it'll outcompete other species or anything.

[Works4TheGood]

and then, you know, release the ant into the wild. After all, it's not like we've created an ecologically destructive species. It's not like it'll outcompete other species or anything.

It's the same thing as releasing a collie, pug, bloodhound, or chihuahua into the wild. When things are selectively bred in captivity, they get very good at being domesticated at the cost of suppressing or losing key survival genes. Find me one example of selective breeding causing "an ecologically destructive species"! It doesn't make sense because the ancestor has all of the same genes already and they're already in the species' optimal balance. If a gene is not expressed in the wild, that's because mother nature has beaten it down into its recessive nature. You never add DNA or new traits through selective breeding. If anything, you diminish and weaken the genome in the process.

Edited by Works4TheGood, February 19 2017 - 8:42 PM.

[Martialis]

While those are some great points you brought up, we shouldn't compare a mammal with a complex brain to an insect with mere ganglia. Dog breeds also are developed over at least five generations.

 

By "ecologically destructive," I mean "pushes native and wild species out."  Bovines, sheep, goats, and pigs all did this.

Edited by Martialis, February 19 2017 - 8:41 PM.