66 replies to this topic

[thosaka]

I am just curious. What was against the rules of GAN?

[Antsinmycloset]

Here you go. Native species/shipping is really the big deal.

Edited by Antsinmycloset, April 4 2017 - 12:11 PM.

[Martialis]

Wait.. doesn't that mean I can report all Solenopsis invicta sellers on GAN?

[Serafine]

Yes, you can. And you should.

I'm soon gonna report the entire project to US authorities as my patience on this issue is running out quickly.

Edited by Serafine, July 19 2017 - 7:00 PM.

[VoidElecent]

Is advertising still prohibited by AntsCanada? I know a number of GAN farmers, including myself, who have advertised their collections either by publishing an adoption thread, making a website or reaching out to prospective customers. Should I terminate any advertisement endeavors? 

[Serafine]

Considering that they can't even properly update their email service (see here http://www.formicult...-ants/?p=66863) nor to enforce their own rules by prohibiting the sales of invasive red imported fire ants I can't imagine them bothering about any advertisement adventures.

Edited by Serafine, July 19 2017 - 5:55 AM.

[T.C.]

Yes, you can. And you should.
I'm soon gonna report the entire project to US authorities as my patience on this issue is running out quickly.

I agree with you. The selling of ants like selenopsis invicta shouldn't even be allowed. However you live in Germany. Why do you have such a great interest in this matter? What people are doing here in the U.S. isn't your concern and really doesnt affect you in anyway. Of course, this is assuming no one is sending you selenopsis invicta clear in Germany. Or any other ants for that matter because it's all illegal. But this is highly unlikely that anyone is doing so. Your welcome to have input but It really isn't your place to be completely honest.Have you contacted antscanada on this matter? Even if you have and there was no reply, (which I wouldn't be surprised about) you should let this be handled by those it affects which would be americans. We are the ones that will have to put up with the invasive species if they were to spread. So to just clear things up, until you are getting selenopsis invicta in your mail box from americans, it is not your business.

[Reacker]

Yes, you can. And you should.

I'm soon gonna report the entire project to US authorities as my patience on this issue is running out quickly.

I doubt that the relevant authorities on the topic are completely oblivious to the existence of the top search result for "buy ant colony" or various permutations thereof.

[Klassien]

 

Yes, you can. And you should.

I'm soon gonna report the entire project to US authorities as my patience on this issue is running out quickly.

I doubt that the relevant authorities on the topic are completely oblivious to the existence of the top search result for "buy ant colony" or various permutations thereof.

 

Especially at a federal level here, there are bigger conflicts to worry about than people selling ants.. Sad enough that AntsCanada is currently located in the Philippines and not North America; I doubt they'd take action and send an investigator out there. Let alone an agent to deliver a huge fine or whatnot for any violations they may find within the project.

 

In Germany there aren't restrictions on keeping non-native ants, and I am a bit curious on why/how this even matters/applies to you?

Edited by Klassien, July 19 2017 - 3:52 PM.

[nurbs]

 

Yes, you can. And you should.
I'm soon gonna report the entire project to US authorities as my patience on this issue is running out quickly.

I agree with you. The selling of ants like selenopsis invicta shouldn't even be allowed. However you live in Germany. Why do you have such a great interest in this matter? What people are doing here in the U.S. isn't your concern and really doesnt affect you in anyway. Of course, this is assuming no one is sending you selenopsis invicta clear in Germany. Or any other ants for that matter because it's all illegal. But this is highly unlikely that anyone is doing so. Your welcome to have input but It really isn't your place to be completely honest.Have you contacted antscanada on this matter? Even if you have and there was no reply, (which I wouldn't be surprised about) you should let this be handled by those it affects which would be americans. We are the ones that will have to put up with the invasive species if they were to spread. So to just clear things up, until you are getting selenopsis invicta in your mail box from americans, it is not your business.

 

 

+99999998.02912567

 

He checks the GAN website everynight, hits refresh a few hundred times but still sees S. invicta listed that no one actually buys for $5 here in the US in an area that is already quarantined and heavily invaded, and then loses sleep all night long. While living in Germany. Then gets on formiculture.com and vents his frustration.

[Antony]

Yes, you can. And you should.

I'm soon gonna report the entire project to US authorities as my patience on this issue is running out quickly.

 why report this to USA authorities? Invicta will be in usa for many years to come and be sold legally or illegally whether we like it or not. And if you wanna report something, how about the illegal ant stores in germany that smuggle invicta along with other species aswell. 

Edited by Antony, July 19 2017 - 6:19 PM.

[T.C.]

Yes, you can. And you should.
I'm soon gonna report the entire project to US authorities as my patience on this issue is running out quickly.

I agree with you. The selling of ants like selenopsis invicta shouldn't even be allowed. However you live in Germany. Why do you have such a great interest in this matter? What people are doing here in the U.S. isn't your concern and really doesnt affect you in anyway. Of course, this is assuming no one is sending you selenopsis invicta clear in Germany. Or any other ants for that matter because it's all illegal. But this is highly unlikely that anyone is doing so. Your welcome to have input but It really isn't your place to be completely honest.Have you contacted antscanada on this matter? Even if you have and there was no reply, (which I wouldn't be surprised about) you should let this be handled by those it affects which would be americans. We are the ones that will have to put up with the invasive species if they were to spread. So to just clear things up, until you are getting selenopsis invicta in your mail box from americans, it is not your business.

 
+99999998.02912567
 
He checks the GAN website everynight, hits refresh a few hundred times but still sees S. invicta listed that no one actually buys for $5 here in the US in an area that is already quarantined and heavily invaded, and then loses sleep all night long. While living in Germany. Then gets on formiculture.com and vents his frustration.

Must be nice to have a problem free life with no real worries.

[Serafine]

Sad enough that AntsCanada is currently located in the Philippines and not North America; I doubt they'd take action and send an investigator out there.istle:

They do not need to send anyone to the US. They just need to remove RIFA colonies (at least in the states that have a RIFA quarantine zone border inside them) and unidentified ants from the GAN store page. And the colonies without workers and those housed in improper containers (like glass bottles) as well, because they're violating GAN's own rules. That's all.

 

I agree with you. The selling of ants like selenopsis invicta shouldn't even be allowed. However you live in Germany. Why do you have such a great interest in this matter?

Because I think that at it's core GAN is a really really great idea. It just needs a major cleanup and an actual enforcement of it's own rules.
Also GAN is a worldwide project and Europe is in dare need for some local species appreciation - since you can just buy any exotic species if you hand over enough bucks at any ant shop many people here consider local/european species boring and uninteresting. It's probably even worse than in the US. If anything Europe needs a proper GAN more than America does.

Edited by Serafine, July 19 2017 - 7:15 PM.

[Serafine]

Also there are some stores in Europe that resort to pretty shady practices like mass-founding Camponotus ligniperda with dozens of queens in a single container then picking out some workers and a queen and selling them (which often results in infertile queens or dysfunctional colonies being sold), overextended hibernation of queens (to delay colony founding so they don't have to feed them) and smuggling ants from tropical countries.

 

A native ant project with a proper framework (like a platform where the development of colonies that are up for sale can be monitored (with at least one update per month) until they are sold) could be a real thing here. If people see that sellers put effort and quality into the ants they sell they will prefer them over the larger ant retailers (or force the stores to raise to the same standards which would be an even better thing). GAN in Europe could be a success but it requires much more effort and infrastructure than it currently has.

Edited by Serafine, July 19 2017 - 8:15 PM.

[Cameron C. Thomas]

 

Yes, you can. And you should.
I'm soon gonna report the entire project to US authorities as my patience on this issue is running out quickly.

I agree with you. The selling of ants like selenopsis invicta shouldn't even be allowed. However you live in Germany. Why do you have such a great interest in this matter? What people are doing here in the U.S. isn't your concern and really doesnt affect you in anyway. Of course, this is assuming no one is sending you selenopsis invicta clear in Germany. Or any other ants for that matter because it's all illegal. But this is highly unlikely that anyone is doing so. Your welcome to have input but It really isn't your place to be completely honest.Have you contacted antscanada on this matter? Even if you have and there was no reply, (which I wouldn't be surprised about) you should let this be handled by those it affects which would be americans. We are the ones that will have to put up with the invasive species if they were to spread. So to just clear things up, until you are getting selenopsis invicta in your mail box from americans, it is not your business.

 

 
 

Especially at a federal level here, there are bigger conflicts to worry about than people selling ants.. Sad enough that AntsCanada is currently located in the Philippines and not North America; I doubt they'd take action and send an investigator out there. Let alone an agent to deliver a huge fine or whatnot for any violations they may find within the project.
 
In Germany there aren't restrictions on keeping non-native ants, and I am a bit curious on why/how this even matters/applies to you?

 
 

+99999998.02912567
 
He checks the GAN website everynight, hits refresh a few hundred times but still sees S. invicta listed that no one actually buys for $5 here in the US in an area that is already quarantined and heavily invaded, and then loses sleep all night long. While living in Germany. Then gets on formiculture.com and vents his frustration.

 
I work and teach at Washington State University Vancouver. I'm an ecologist and conservation biologist, and since I'm the only person on this campus who does work with ants, I'll call myself our resident myrmecologist. I introduce myself this way because I want folks to understand where I'm coming from. Without regard to my feelings about the GAN or how much of an issue RIFA is/isn't, my problem is with this attitude toward Sarafine's concern.
 
It's common for researchers in the US, and everywhere, really, to do work in systems outside of their state and even country, but even though I work exclusively in the American northwest, ecological and conservation issues in California, Kansas, and Florida are my business. These issues, whether they're in Mexico, Norway, or Iraq, are my business. The vast majority of people on this forum are not researchers or even students. You all are hobbyists and citizen scientists who happen to think ants are pretty cool, and I don't think many people realize how uncommon that is--how important that is--because these sorts of issues should be your business as well. One of the biggest problems I see with the planet, at least through my occupational lens, is that not enough people care about biological issues which don't affect them directly.
 
I love that this community exists. I also work with flies and butterflies, and while there is a robust community of folks who enjoy talking about butterflies, you'll be hard-pressed to find an active community discussing flies that isn't 99.9% professional dipterists, and even those are rare.
 
I'm not saying you shouldn't argue about the GAN or whether or not selling RIFA is an issue, but please don't discourage someone from caring about or discussing an issue because they aren't geographically bound to the problem.

[Serafine]

It is actually VERY important that people care. We have own own issues in Europe with stuff like Glyphosat, overfertilized earth, dying insect populations however what is currently going on in the United States in beyond ridiculous.

 

The Trump administration is fighting an outright war against the scientific community, completely ignoring them, excluding them from all decisions, firing them (until the end of the year about 1300 EPA scientists will loose their jobs), concealing and silencing news about environmental problems, replacing scientists on leading positions with corporate people which have strong connections to the industry, watering down or outright removing laws for protection of environment and health and the average citizens are paying the bill - and this can actually be taken LITERALLY because Trump's government is trying to remove health care from poor and middle-class citizens so that the state doesn't have to pay for them when their children get brain damage from pesticides that the new chief of the agriculture department refuses to ban despite scientific studies have PROVEN that these exact pesticides are causing damage to children's brain development and that people who live in areas where coal is extracted from mountain tops have tremendously increased cancer rates due to contact with contaminated water (the Trump administration has just basically removed excess water regulations for these kinds of operations so expect the cancer rates to explode).

 

Effectively the current US government doesn't give a crap about the environmental damage or the health issues that citizens suffer due to industrial operations. If this continues the United States will soon be back in the 60s and companies can poison entire villages with chromium, DDT and other toxic chemicals - because that's fine as long as Donald and his billionaire club can fill their pockets to please the greedy gods of corporation at the cost of the average peasant.

 

So yes, people caring about this stuff IS important. Actually it's important RIGHT NOW, maybe more than ever.

Edited by Serafine, July 22 2017 - 3:51 AM.

[nurbs]

 

 

Yes, you can. And you should.
I'm soon gonna report the entire project to US authorities as my patience on this issue is running out quickly.

I agree with you. The selling of ants like selenopsis invicta shouldn't even be allowed. However you live in Germany. Why do you have such a great interest in this matter? What people are doing here in the U.S. isn't your concern and really doesnt affect you in anyway. Of course, this is assuming no one is sending you selenopsis invicta clear in Germany. Or any other ants for that matter because it's all illegal. But this is highly unlikely that anyone is doing so. Your welcome to have input but It really isn't your place to be completely honest.Have you contacted antscanada on this matter? Even if you have and there was no reply, (which I wouldn't be surprised about) you should let this be handled by those it affects which would be americans. We are the ones that will have to put up with the invasive species if they were to spread. So to just clear things up, until you are getting selenopsis invicta in your mail box from americans, it is not your business.

 

 
 

Especially at a federal level here, there are bigger conflicts to worry about than people selling ants.. Sad enough that AntsCanada is currently located in the Philippines and not North America; I doubt they'd take action and send an investigator out there. Let alone an agent to deliver a huge fine or whatnot for any violations they may find within the project.
 
In Germany there aren't restrictions on keeping non-native ants, and I am a bit curious on why/how this even matters/applies to you?

 
 

+99999998.02912567
 
He checks the GAN website everynight, hits refresh a few hundred times but still sees S. invicta listed that no one actually buys for $5 here in the US in an area that is already quarantined and heavily invaded, and then loses sleep all night long. While living in Germany. Then gets on formiculture.com and vents his frustration.

 
I work and teach at Washington State University Vancouver. I'm an ecologist and conservation biologist, and since I'm the only person on this campus who does work with ants, I'll call myself our resident myrmecologist. I introduce myself this way because I want folks to understand where I'm coming from. Without regard to my feelings about the GAN or how much of an issue RIFA is/isn't, my problem is with this attitude toward Sarafine's concern.
 
It's common for researchers in the US, and everywhere, really, to do work in systems outside of their state and even country, but even though I work exclusively in the American northwest, ecological and conservation issues in California, Kansas, and Florida are my business. These issues, whether they're in Mexico, Norway, or Iraq, are my business. The vast majority of people on this forum are not researchers or even students. You all are hobbyists and citizen scientists who happen to think ants are pretty cool, and I don't think many people realize how uncommon that is--how important that is--because these sorts of issues should be your business as well. One of the biggest problems I see with the planet, at least through my occupational lens, is that not enough people care about biological issues which don't affect them directly.
 
I love that this community exists. I also work with flies and butterflies, and while there is a robust community of folks who enjoy talking about butterflies, you'll be hard-pressed to find an active community discussing flies that isn't 99.9% professional dipterists, and even those are rare.
 
I'm not saying you shouldn't argue about the GAN or whether or not selling RIFA is an issue, but please don't discourage someone from caring about or discussing an issue because they aren't geographically bound to the problem.

 

 

 

Cameron, your assumptions are completely wrong. I appreciate anyone from around the world who brings up these issues in a sincere, level headed, non-dramatic, and non-sensationalized post.

 

I could flash you credentials like you have so we could compare the size of our manhood, but I just simply do not have the time nor the energy to explain everything. 

 

But I've been on these forums since its inception, and while I do not post often nor try to win popularity contests, I visit and read all the posts every day. Do you?

 

Aside from answering the same questions on these forums every other week, the posts that annoy the most are the ones that stir up drama, make innuendos, use all caps and underlines to get other member's attention for the sake of self promotion or popularity and not because they are an Environmentalist Saint with a Heart of Gold.

 

So please. Do not encourage or egg Serafine on. 

Edited by nurbs, July 21 2017 - 7:03 PM.

[T.C.]

Cameron, your assumptions are completely wrong. I appreciate anyone from around the world who brings up these issues in a sincere, level headed, non-dramatic, and non-sensationalized post.
 
I could flash you credentials like you have so we could compare the size of our manhood, but I just simply do not have the time nor the energy to explain everything. 
 
But I've been on these forums since its inception, and while I do not post often nor try to win popularity contests, I visit and read all the posts every day. Do you?
 
Aside from answering the same questions on these forums every other week, the posts that annoy the most are the ones that stir up drama, make innuendos, use all caps and underlines to get other member's attention for the sake of self promotion or popularity and not because they are an Environmentalist Saint with a Heart of Gold.
 
So please. Do not encourage or egg Serafine on.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts. But before I continue with what I'm about to say, this is not meant to offend or criticize anyone. But as you may have noticed from my prior post in this thread, I'm rather blunt as I belive this is the best method for getting your point across. No need to "beat around the bush"

Now unlike nurbs, I've been here not even a year yet. However I was here before @Cameron and @serafine. I met both in chat shortly after they registered. Now firstly I just wanted to say, that as far as Cameron's comment on his career and him basically being his universities "resident myrmecologist" is almost pointless to the disscussion. Although you may have not meant it in such a way, you bringing up your career and stating to our members "You all are hobbyists and citizen scientists" is rather rude. If I hadn't seen your friendly posts in prior disccussions, I would assume you were talking down us hobbyists and our intelligence on ants. Eitherway, I can assure you I'm not even close to a professional. But I think you would be surprised to find how many people in this hobby are close to being one or have a similar amount of intelligence on the topic. People like MrILoveTheAnts have actually been confused with a professional when in all reality he is from what I understand a experienced hobbyist. This also applies to other member's like Batspiderfish and Dspdrew who have great knowledge in the hobby. Maybe not proffessionals, but they might be able to teach you a thing or two. However this forum does have a few ACTUAL professionals as well. Gcsnelling, James C. Trager, are two off the top of my head that are members here. Then people like Miles who are currently in college working to become entomologists.

But back to the actual topic. Now there is a difference between caring about a topic and just enjoying the dramatics. Serafine claims his "patience is running out." For someone, that lives in a completely different country and isn't affected by gan no matter whether he claims he is or isn't is just ridiculous. Pointing out GAN's flaws was perfectly fine and helpful. However the fact he is so involved in this and was getting ready to "report it to US authorities" like they don't already know was for the dramatics! He has a past of arguing or debating with people in posts which I believe he enjoys. I would know, like Nurbs I read almost every post on this forum.

If someone is so worried and concerned about what bugs people are selling to each other, in another country, then they need to get a job or find a few more hobbies to fill up all that spare time. No one is as concerned as Serafine claims to be bottom line. Nobody wants invasive species spreading, but we all have lives to live and other things to be doing. Life is short so I just want to enjoy this hobby to its fullest potential.

[nurbs]

 

 

Now unlike nurbs, I've been here not even a year yet. However I was here before @Cameron and @serafine. I met both in chat shortly after they registered. Now firstly I just wanted to say, that as far as Cameron's comment on his career and him basically being his universities "resident myrmecologist" is almost pointless to the disscussion. Although you may have not meant it in such a way, you bringing up your career and stating to our members "You all are hobbyists and citizen scientists" is rather rude.

 

 

 

Also condescending. Scientists are citizens too.

[Klassien]

 

 

Cameron, your assumptions are completely wrong. I appreciate anyone from around the world who brings up these issues in a sincere, level headed, non-dramatic, and non-sensationalized post.

 

 

I could flash you credentials like you have so we could compare the size of our manhood, but I just simply do not have the time nor the energy to explain everything. 

 

But I've been on these forums since its inception, and while I do not post often nor try to win popularity contests, I visit and read all the posts every day. Do you?

 

Aside from answering the same questions on these forums every other week, the posts that annoy the most are the ones that stir up drama, make innuendos, use all caps and underlines to get other member's attention for the sake of self promotion or popularity and not because they are an Environmentalist Saint with a Heart of Gold.

 

So please. Do not encourage or egg Serafine on. 

 

I didn't know underlining, using caps, or possibly even italicizing (if that's included) automatically enters the author of the post into a popularity contest or endorses oneself. Hopefully I didn't annoy or offend you with italicizing a word; I merely responded to a post expressing some thoughts/opinions. Certainly I am no "Environmentalist Saint with a Heart of Gold" if I must say so. Innuendos are also a pet peeve of mine too.

 

Backtracking to the original concern about the project, GAN ultimately needs some revision.

Something else to point out is rule #3, the AC "exclusivity" condition in which they can only go through the site to sell ants, which I personally think is quiet strange. They "must be directed to" the site itself to mediate the "purchasing transactions." "Never sell ants to anyone except through the GAN Project..."

If that's the case then having an ant adoption thread here and being a farmer in the project violates the agreement.