19 replies to this topic

[Bcam43]

Hi all,

 

I'd love to get some comments regarding this.

 

Should the GAN project be subject to regulation?

Edited by Bcam43, August 17 2016 - 6:13 PM.

[Subverted]

I think you are making a mountain out of an anthill. Ants reproduce relying on numbers of which only a very small percentage ever survive. I know in my area most of the Pogonomyrmex queens I collected would end up like this if I didn't grab them:

 

 

Certainly not the case everywhere for every species but insect collecting simply does not have any measurable impact on populations in the vast majority of places.

[Bcam43]

I think you are making a mountain out of an anthill. Ants reproduce relying on numbers of which only a very small percentage ever survive. I know in my area most of the Pogonomyrmex queens I collected would end up like this if I didn't grab them:

 

 

Certainly not the case everywhere for every species but insect collecting simply does not have any measurable impact on populations in the vast majority of places.

 

Thanks for the reply subverted. I'm not trying to make this an issue I'm simply raising it for discussion and voicing my opinion which is based around the commercial collections of queens.

 

When a hobbyist is collecting for personal use then generally they collect only what they can use or what they find.  Typically a small amount. I agree that this would not affect populations.

 

However, if we are actively encouraging people to collect for commerical benefit then the concern I've tried to raise is that the amount that is collected in a specific area will significantly increase. At the moment the hobby is fairly small, however in 5, 10, 15 years and beyond when the demand for queen ants will be higher the issue of ant populations in a specific area may become a problem if the commercial collection is unregulated.

 

There are obviously ants in huge numbers that exist throughout an entire country that may never be affected by collections. But what about the minority species that may not be able to tolerate large numbers of queens taken from a particular area. I know other licensed insect dealers and traders are subjected to very stringent conditions in order to preserve populations. Conditions such as collection quotas, the sustainability of a species due to the collection, the ecological impact on the local fauna and flora relating to collection methods and access, restrictions on the areas of collection, annual reporting of what is collected as well as annual reporting of populations of other fauna that could be affected by the collection of a particular species.

 

If we're looking for a long term solution to ant trading and dealing then I think that all commercial traders should require regulations of some sort. Otherwise it becomes a huge free for all and we have no idea how many queens are being harvested. We simply can't say that because there are million of ants that it's impossible for us to affect populations. As demand increases so will the traders and dealers.

 

The mere fact that only 1% or a very small amount of queens actually succeed in starting a new colony should be more reason why we look at ensuring that we are not over collecting for commercial reasons.

Edited by Bcam43, July 21 2016 - 12:15 AM.

[Subverted]

Sorry if I seem dismissive of your concerns...I've just been around in the bug hobby for long enough to know where this stuff leads and it is no good. I don't think we should be encouraging commercial collection but the truth is there is not and just will never be a demand for queens that puts things in danger unless absolute boneheads do the collecting.

 

I do not understand the thought process where instead of just teaching people to use common sense and be responsible about numbers you want to bring down government scrutiny on a hobby that has a absolutely minuscule population. Truly your expanded ideas are terrifying. Think about what you are saying. Do you know what your idea would result in? The government has zero interest in properly regulating a hobby that is so insignificant as ours...the second the government gets involved you can kiss any legal ant keeping goodbye.

 

This is a very slippery slope.

 

Edit: Further I really do not understand why people are always fixated on growing a hobby like ants or bug keeping in general. I have witnessed a bunch of people try and fail at it over the years. The only motivation ever seems to be that they want to make money off of the hobby without any real understanding of it.

[Bcam43]

Thanks again for your reply subverted. I agree with a lot of the points you raise and respect your opinion based on your knowledge on the subject.

Your concerns are valid. I realise in the US there is already a fear factor surrounding ant keeping and the idea of regulation sounds scary.

My concerns were based on the sustainability of ant species and the love of the hobby. We are always concerned when we see hobbyists posting images of hundreds of collected queens with the intention of selling them without proper knowledge of the potential impact.

We may be guilty of worrying too much about a problem that may never eventuate.

[dspdrew]

First of all, I won't even get started on what I think about government regulations. Most people here already know my opinion about that.

 

When a hobbyist is collecting for personal use then generally they collect only what they can use or what they find.  Typically a small amount. I agree that this would not affect populations.
 
However, if we are actively encouraging people to collect for commerical benefit then the concern I've tried to raise is that the amount that is collected in a specific area will significantly increase. At the moment the hobby is fairly small, however in 5, 10, 15 years and beyond when the demand for queen ants will be higher the issue of ant populations in a specific area may become a problem if the commercial collection is unregulated.

 
This hobby is not fairly small; it's minuscule. The hobby has been around for many years already too. I see no reason at all to believe it's going to be any bigger 15 years from now. Not sure if I still am, but I know I was Mikey's biggest GAN seller, and I sell to about one person a month on average. Nobody is going to sell 50 queens simply because they caught 50 queens. They might think this in the beginning, but will quickly learn otherwise. Most of what I sell are nothing more than my extra colonies. You can't just go collect one queen because you want a colony of that particular species; you have to collect 30 or so sometimes to end up with a good colony. I only collect a very small amount when only collecting with the intent to sell them, because I know that's all I would even be able to sell. Believe me, with the amount of work involved in keeping them, it's hardly worth it anyway. I mainly just do it because I feel like I have to try to make back some of the hundreds of dollars I spend on gas going out on these trips. Selling queens, at least for me, will always be considered a hobby and not a business. The only real reason I do it is because I enjoy it.

 

We are always concerned when we see hobbyists posting images of hundreds of collected queens with the intention of selling them without proper knowledge of the potential impact.

We may be guilty of worrying too much about a problem that may never eventuate.

 
Seeing a row of 30 test tubes might look like a lot of queens to some people, but it's almost nothing compared to the amount of queens produced each year in the area they were collected. Ants don't reproduce the way larger animals do; The vast majority of the queens produced during a mating flight are going to end up dead before ever even producing a single worker. The rest will probably almost all be dead before their colony is ever even mature enough to produce alates.

[Bcam43]

Thanks for the insight Drew. It's good to know that people like you are involved with the GAN project.

 

It's becoming evident that my concerns are ill founded. 

[drtrmiller]

Your concerns are not ill-founded.  This is simply the wrong forum for this type of discussion.

 

While there is an abundance of research on the ecology of soil movement by ants and how this affects native plant biodiversity, effects on the diversity of native fauna through invasive ant predation and monopolistic competition, and damage to plants and human infrastructure by non-native tramp species, there is little to no scientific study on the ecology of displacement of Formicidae through human trade or trafficking.  And so, while users who have posted here may have strong opinions based on their own limited personal experience, they have no third-party evidence to support their purely speculative claims.

 

It is for this reason—the limited amount of information that exists—that only respectable scientists and researchers could possibly make credible contributions to these sorts of discussions.  And because I am neither of these things, I will close my remarks on the subject.

Edited by drtrmiller, July 21 2016 - 12:08 PM.

[Batspiderfish]

I think that new or young anters tend to capture way more queens than they can take care of, but an ant queen is more or less the equivalent of a flower's seed, and collecting 50 specimens is likely not even enough to silence the reproductive potential of a single colony.

 

I think that GAN is a valuable tool for individuals who are not able to collect ants on their own, but is otherwise a shortcut that harms the quality of life for our captive ants and belies the patience required to raise them successfully.

[dspdrew]

And so, while users here may have strong opinions based on their own limited personal experience, they have no third-party evidence to support their purely speculative claims.

 

Just curious, whose and what claims are you referring to here?

[Loops117]

Your concerns are not ill-founded.  This is simply the wrong forum for this type of discussion.

 

While there is an abundance of research on the ecology of soil movement by ants and how this affects native plant biodiversity, effects on the diversity of native fauna through invasive ant predation and monopolistic competition, and damage to plants and human infrastructure by non-native tramp species, there is little to no scientific study on the ecology of displacement of Formicidae through human trade or trafficking.  And so, while users here may have strong opinions based on their own limited personal experience, they have no third-party evidence to support their purely speculative claims.

 

It is for this reason—the limited amount of information that exists—that only respectable scientists and researchers could possibly make credible contributions to these sorts of discussions.  And because I am neither of these things, I will close my remarks on the subject.

Pretty sure he asked for an Opinion. He Posted this on a public forum such as a facebook page, one that's used by hobbyist. He didn't ask for our scientific perspective or "credible contribution", so responses are going to be exactly that, an opinion. So, just because you're not a 3rd party or respective scientist, doesn't mean you can't give what he asked for, an opinion.

 

Everyone here posted their opinion on behalf of their own experiences, and how they feel their experiences impact the natural environment. I feel that since you're so experienced in the ant world, your respective opinion would be taken in to account. And TBH, how can you say that nobody here is a respectable researcher?

 

No need to flex.

[Reacker]

 

 

It is for this reason—the limited amount of information that exists—that only respectable scientists and researchers could possibly make credible contributions to these sorts of discussions.  

 

 

I disagree with this. As a credible contribution from my own "limited personal experience" I have two observations that I believe make a credible contribution to this discussion.

 

The first observation is that I have personally observed that in my area of the country, mature Pogonomyrmex colonies are exceedingly easy to capture in the first couple warm weeks of Spring because I can simply knock their gravel mound over and dig 4 or 5 inches below and almost always the queen will be in there (I've done this successfully in Oregon, Idaho, and Nevada). During this window of time, after the queens have come up from below the deepest depths of their nests and before they return (I suspect they are warming up??), it is trivially easy to do this on colony after colony. The larger the colony, the easier this is to do as the queen has higher nest chambers to rise to. Anyone with the financial motivation to do so could easily depopulate many square miles of mature Pogonomyrmex colonies a year. Repeat this process a few years in a row and you will find a sizable chunk of territory with no more Pogonomyrmex colonies. What effect does the disappearance of a major herbivore have on an environment?

 

The second observation is that I personally have managed to disturb enough habitat in a small park (with 50/50 developed to undeveloped terrain) to such an extent that where previously small colonies of Pheidole were easy to find under many suitable rocks (in the undeveloped areas), a couple years later only T. sessile could be found. My disruption was simply walking around and lifting up all of the suitable rocks I could find. I did my best to put the rocks back but even years later you can tell which rocks I lifted and which I did not, and under those rocks you now only find T. sessile. 

 

 

So while I don't believe that removing queens that you find wandering around is at all a problem (almost all of them die anyways), I do think that it is possible to for ant keepers to cause disruptions and declines in local ant populations. I don't believe that our hobby is big enough to worry about it, and I think regulating the industry at this point would be enormous overkill and a huge waste of tax dollars, but I do think that we as individual ant keepers need to be aware of the damage that we can cause because even a single person can have an observable impact. 

 

 

You don't have to be a "respectable scientist and researcher" to make these types of valid and useful observations.

Edited by Reacker, July 21 2016 - 1:50 PM.

[Canadian anter]

, but an ant queen is more or less the equivalent of a flower's seed, and collecting 50 specimens is likely not even enough to silence the reproductive potential of a single colony.

 

.

I kinda disagree with this part. A plant will usually produce many many seeds with a higher success rate than ants. It's not that I don't like metaphors, but some species only produce 10-20 queens while others produce thousands. They usually still have a simillar success rate, but some sp. are hard to raise even in captivity such asstigatomma. There are some, like Amblyopone trigonignatha that people would die for just to see. Not all ant colonies produce massive amounts of alates.

[Loops117]

 

, but an ant queen is more or less the equivalent of a flower's seed, and collecting 50 specimens is likely not even enough to silence the reproductive potential of a single colony.

 

.

There are some, like Amblyopone trigonignatha that people would die for just to see. Not all ant colonies produce massive amounts of alates.

 

I swear i found a small colony of these (actually, it could have been A. pallipes)  in some wood while out searching. I didn't collect because they were soooo small, and they looked hard to keep.

Edited by Loops117, July 22 2016 - 4:53 AM.

[Batspiderfish]

 

, but an ant queen is more or less the equivalent of a flower's seed, and collecting 50 specimens is likely not even enough to silence the reproductive potential of a single colony.

 

.

I kinda disagree with this part. A plant will usually produce many many seeds with a higher success rate than ants. It's not that I don't like metaphors, but some species only produce 10-20 queens while others produce thousands. They usually still have a simillar success rate, but some sp. are hard to raise even in captivity such asstigatomma. There are some, like Amblyopone trigonignatha that people would die for just to see. Not all ant colonies produce massive amounts of alates.

 

 

It does differ by species, that is absolutely true!

 

Thankfully the young'uns are mostly collecting queens of Tetramorium, Solenopsis invicta, large Camponotus, and Lasius, which are plentiful and common. There are queens out there that GAN farmers need to be aware not to collect, such as certain members of Polyergus and anything from Dorylinae, based on their meager reproductive output. There's probably more to the list than that -- that's definitely worth looking into.
 

Stigmatomma needs a helper worker or pupa to start a colony in captivity. Their reproductive habits in the wild are poorly understood; us hobbyists only seem to find new queens that have fallen into bodies of water.
 

I'd love to find one of the workerless inquiline Tetramorium species (Anergates is just Tetramorium, now), but outside of their nest you really just have to get lucky enough to notice them. Weatherant had the damn things falling into his pool every year.   I love that he was able to film one infiltrating a host colony.

[Canadian anter]

 

 

, but an ant queen is more or less the equivalent of a flower's seed, and collecting 50 specimens is likely not even enough to silence the reproductive potential of a single colony.

 

.

There are some, like Amblyopone trigonignatha that people would die for just to see. Not all ant colonies produce massive amounts of alates.

 

I swear i found a small colony of these (actually, it could have been A. pallipes)  in some wood while out searching. I didn't collect because they were soooo small, and they looked hard to keep.

 

You realize this sp. has only been seen twice, right?

[Loops117]

Documented twice, who knows how many times we've looked at an ant without actually ACTUALLY lookimg at it. I swear i found a species exactly like this. They looked like a species that I've never seen before, and small. didn't feel it would be a good collect. Should have snapped photos

[Batspiderfish]

Documented twice, who knows how many times we've looked at an ant without actually ACTUALLY lookimg at it. I swear i found a species exactly like this. They looked like a species that I've never seen before, and small. didn't feel it would be a good collect. Should have snapped photos

 

Sure it wasn't Ponera or Hyperponera? Stigmatomma and the likes aren't tiny.

[Loops117]

I'm honestly not 100% sure. I'm just saying that i found an ant with this exact same build and shape. I'm gonna go out and take a look in that exact area again tomorrow and see if i can find them. I may snag a worker for an ID if there is many. I was out collecting ants for GAN that day, collected two small colonies and a single C.pennsylvanicus queen that day, felt that was enough for the area.

[Vendayn]

I'm pretty sure that construction/bulldozing and irrigation, has done 1 million times more damage than I've ever and all the ant keepers on the forum have even come close to doing in over 10 years of ant keeping. Every time I find an awesome ant area (locally) that I can walk to, next thing that happens is construction and bulldozing. After that, stupidly annoying Argentine ants move in because they put in irrigation.

 

In San Diego, I had tons of ant areas. The nearby areas got bulldozed, houses built on it, and then all native ants died from Argentine ants

 

Here in Irvine, I have a local area to go to. Its a long walk, but now Argentine ants are moving in because a housing area is getting built+irrigation. And the area with Pogonomyrmex californicus, has a gas station and a new apartment complex being built nearby.

 

So, all I can do is dig up colonies and move them. I seem to have had great success at doing it (this year all the Pogonomyrmex colonies I moved are doing great. Same with the Dorymyrmex bicolor.). Otherwise, they'll be killed off by bulldozers or Argentine ants.

 

Construction and irrigation do way more damage in a single year, than all the ant keepers in all the world combined, could ever do in even 10 years of ant keeping.

Edited by Vendayn, July 22 2016 - 11:08 PM.