12 replies to this topic

[bootsfirst]

Hey folks - hopefully this is just beginner's anxiety, but we're first timers and I'm pretty worried by what seems to be a really high mortality rate among our newly arrived Pogonomyrmex occidentalis. Bottom-line; I think we've lost 5-7 workers in the first 4 days - how worried should I be?

 

We ordered from Tar Heel, got the 20-30 workers + queen bundle (though I think closer to 40 when they arrived Tuesday night, all alive), and have them in a Fallen Fortress. Took a bit of work getting them out of their test tube, but they moved in after the first night and are set up as you see here. Filled the nestmate and put 10ml of water into the water tower Tuesday night, then added the feeder tray of dandelion seeds the following morning (they seem to have taken about half of the seeds into the nest). The nestmate was empty this morning, so refilled it, and we topped off the water tower with 5ml yesterday.

 

In terms of potential signals:

• Temperature-wise, I've attached a heatmap (all measured with this); the #s on my chart below are as of a minute ago, and a bit lower than usual by about 2 degrees (I usually see the water tower around 75)
• There are a decent # of tiny black/brown dots up against the glass ceiling. Could these be mold, or am I just looking at ant poop?
• We have seen the ants moving seeds around, tending the larvae + pupae, and even a couple of pupae eclose, which perhaps is a good sign?
• They're on the desk, which I know exposes them to some vibration, but we don't see much in the way of 'freakout' behavior or running around
• I see 4 corpses atm, but I'd taken out 2 earlier on when they left them in the outworld

Photos below:

 

 

 

 

 

Huge thanks for any advice!!

Edited by bootsfirst, March 8 2025 - 9:03 AM.

[ANTdrew]

They may just be deaths due to the stress of shipment. That nest does look too big for the size of that colony, but that wouldn’t kill workers quickly like you’re seeing. Give them some time to settle in and see if the deaths continue. Disturb them as little as possible.

[Full_Frontal_Yeti]

I also keep a Pogonomyrmex occidentalis colony i got from THA, and kept in a fallen fortress for a while too, though not at first they started in a mini hearth.


Dots are poop, it will build up in places over time.

the IR temp probe can only tell you the external temps, including the top of the glass but not the inside of the nest actual  temp. Just how the tech works, surface only.  I do use one to double check on things.

It's a bit of overkill by the POV of a lot of keeps, but i love using a thermostat for automated temp control.  I have this one with two separate probes and outlets (came in handy when expanding a year later), and a timer only outlet for lighting. I look at the temp readout once a day to see it looks as expected and winter/summer i don't have to do anything the thermostat automates the temps it for me.
This is from when they had just moved out of their minihearth. the painters tape holds a bit of cable on the side and the part that runs along the top is enough to prevent condensation.
https://www.digiten....om-fermentation





I'd not keep a nest mate with water in their nest. At least with my colony they get fussy about water sources too near/in the nest and tended to drain them out by packing bits of dirt/sand/food onto them which would channeled the water out in a short time. While a ful nest mate should last about a week for a small colony.

yes all sounds like they are doing their thing as normal. They should also make those dead bodies out to a trash pile at some point. My ants are particularly fastidious and keep a trash pile as far from their nest entrance in the outworld as they can get it.

here's where they are today


As long as you don't notice them getting the zoomies/freaking out a lot they should be fine. If they are getting agitated/stressed out frequently, consider a new location with less regular disturbances.


I believe the queen (mine over the last couple years) tends to lay eggs at a slow but steady rate in the 2-10 a day range or so. I've noticed the ants then also tend to die off in little cohorts like that. At some point the death/new egg rate gets fairly close but the queen slightly outpaces the mortality rate and the colony is very steady in growth. Even with the queen having gone on egg break for a few weeks twice now in the last two years. The brood pile shrinks from what you see down to just a few, and then eventually i'll spot a tiny larvae/egg clutch to show she is laying again.

I'd say it sounds and looks like everything is fine and i too had these sorts of worries when i first got my ants.

Edited by Full_Frontal_Yeti, March 8 2025 - 10:43 AM.

[bootsfirst]

Thanks both! Appreciate all the detail (and very inspirational colony FFY!)

 

I was thinking about a probe at some point, but figured for now the IR temp at least gave me a directional sense. Sounds like the temp range itself isn't so low that it's a likely culprit though anyway. Interesting set-up with the heating cable on top as well to allow more coverage of it without causing condensation.

 

Gonna do my best to hold steady and avoid the temptation to interfere or tinker with things and hopefully things stabilize in a few days.

[Full_Frontal_Yeti]

Thanks both! Appreciate all the detail (and very inspirational colony FFY!)

 

I was thinking about a probe at some point, but figured for now the IR temp at least gave me a directional sense. Sounds like the temp range itself isn't so low that it's a likely culprit though anyway. Interesting set-up with the heating cable on top as well to allow more coverage of it without causing condensation.

 

Gonna do my best to hold steady and avoid the temptation to interfere or tinker with things and hopefully things stabilize in a few days.
 

Yeah your temp ranges look fine, a nice gradient of temp chocie for them is best. In the larger multi-nest setup image the temps are set to mimic going deeper underground. With the "top" nest getting an area into the mid to high 80s. The middle nest is given just a bit of the heat from the top nest to be high to mid 70s, and the last nest at the "bottom" is kept 71/72f. The queen is mostly found in the colder bottom nest, while the brood pile is mostly kept in the "top" nest.

The heat cable on the glass is only just barely touching it, not really adding much heat to the nest but is keeping the glass from being cold enough to get condensation on the inside.

[bootsfirst]

Hey folks - thanks again for the advice. Coming up on two weeks since we got the ants, and unfortunately seems like the trend is continuing. At THA's suggestion I added more seeds, which they promptly brought in for a huge stockpile (haven't added more last 4 days or so since they have that pile now), and a bit of organic apple, which they seemed to enjoy drinking from. Unfortunately, the other news seems less good:

• There is only one larva (she looks like she's growing at least!) and maybe one pupa, but I think that might be dead (circled in blue on photo)
• No eggs at all that I can see, although with some humidity and sand stuck to the roof of the water tower room, that might be hard to tell
• Die-off continues, and while it's getting hard to count I think there are at least 8 corpses in the colony and one more in the outworld
• With the bigger space and rough start, it seems like they've set up their trash pile inside the formicarium instead of the outworld, although that may not have time to become a problem at this rate

Definitely welcome any tips of course, and a couple specifics below:

• I've heard that light sensitivity isn't much of a thing with these Pogonomyrmex, but had experimented with keeping them covered up the last 5 or so days. Outside of speeding up how much they brought seeds in, didn't seem to change anything.
• Any tips on what to look for eggs-wise? Would certainly feel more comfortable if I could spot an egg pile forming  
• Nestmate seems popular (always drinking from it, and no longer draining too fast now that I fixed the angle of it) so have kept it in for now

 

Edited by bootsfirst, March 16 2025 - 8:02 AM.

[Full_Frontal_Yeti]

If you drape just a tiny bit of the heated cable onto the glass where the condensation is, it will go away,
As long as the glass isn't too cold, it's keep the condensation from forming.
You see they will place dirt in the water and that'll block up the view.


I noted they do acclimate to light pretty easy. They will also acclimate to the dark though. When i covered mine up, i noticed they would start to get the zoomies when bring lights hit them. But as long as i left them exposed but not brightly lit. Then they mostly ignored when a bright light is used on them for better viewing.

I have found that the queen in my colony simply goes on egg break every so often for several weeks, up to about 6 I think.
As well the stress of the move might just have her waiting to calm down a bit.

The eggs are going to be hard to spot until there's a small clutch of them. If you drape some heat cable on the glass, you might entice the egg holder to come sit next to glass for the heat.

On my fallen fortress i attached the heat cable on the side you have, but i ran the cable from the far edge to the far edge, and had it U shaped for a double run of heat cable along the top and bottom edge of the nest wall.
This gave a lot of contact for more heat absorption into the material of the nest then it looks like you have.  And having a temp probe in the nest meant i could set it and ignore it, keeping the space between the heat wall and the temp probe(using the only other port in the nest, same locaiton as yours) at a nice mid/high 80s. While the rest of the nest could stay cooler. And i note the adult ants not caring for brood tended to stay in the cooler parts of the nest.

Not that i see anything you do here as that off from what many other keeps do. I'm just say'n what my setup had going on when i was using that same nest and heat cable as you have.

I too use organic apples a lot, also blue berries and strawberries are popular. They will mine seeds and drink the sugars.

As a THA colony i would assume good health of the queen, and figure she may just be waiting till things seem safe and stable to her to get back to egg production.

[Ants_Dakota]

I actually had a similar slow die off with my colony (old journal found here: https://www.formicul...ued/?p=246093).My first concern for mine was moisture but like yours, mine had a constant source of water. The only issue I see with your colony is the large size of the formicarium which is far to big for that colony but that should not cause a die off like you are seeing. I wish you the best of luck though. If too many die offs continue I would think about moving them back into a test tube.

[ANTdrew]

Someone should step up and send this fellow some brood for a boost. I’d do it if I could.

[Mushu]

Try feeding some insect protein. Although Pogonomyrmex spp. can survive on seeds, they do have insects a part of their natural diet. I would be curious of their receptivity, although with no brood, they may just dump the body in the trash. Try wingless fruit flies, I have never seen a colony refuse fruit flies.

 

You're not doing anything wrong, hopefully keeping them covered(I wouldn't bother checking for eggs for 2 weeks), and I would try to get rid of the condensation as Full_Frontal_Yeti suggest so they don't try to block the view with debris/sand and hope for the best.

Edited by Mushu, March 16 2025 - 4:58 PM.

[bootsfirst]

Thanks so much for the quick answers and good vibes - it really helps to have the support!

 

In consultation with Mack from THA + this thread, I took a shot at two main changes this morning and we'll see how they pan out - feel like this is the last big shot. After this I'll try not to disturb them further unless it's a last ditch move back into the test tube or something:

 

1) Moved the whole formicarium (see picture of our office) from the desk to the shelf across the room. This should remove any real disturbance from vibrations + gets it out of the blast of the A/C vent I circled above and direct sun, which I suspect is contributing to the condensation. Given consensus is not to worry about blocking light, I'm leaving uncovered.

 

2) Re-worked the heating set-up to match FFY's almost identically, with the doubled-up coil on the back and drape over the top to remove condensation (which it already has). Mack's concern was that not enough heat was penetrating the nest with those surface temps, so let's see how this does, now that it's going to be up in the 80s in the water tower and hotter all around

 

3) More apple and seeds because at least they enjoy them!

 

Have attached a revised heatmap, along with a couple other photos. Sadly the cleared-up water tower chamber revealed more dead, and I worry about what *might* be mold in the trash pile, but we're giving it our best shot!

 

 

Heatmap

 

Room layout and move

 

Water tower closeup

 

Heating cable (ugly, sorry!)

 

Trash pile (mold!? or maybe just sand or something)

Edited by bootsfirst, March 17 2025 - 11:32 AM.

[AntsGodzilla]

I actually had a similar slow die off with my colony (old journal found here: https://www.formicul...ued/?p=246093).My first concern for mine was moisture but like yours, mine had a constant source of water. The only issue I see with your colony is the large size of the formicarium which is far to big for that colony but that should not cause a die off like you are seeing. I wish you the best of luck though. If too many die offs continue I would think about moving them back into a test tube.

I've also had a problem with this, is this a normal thing with Pogonomyrmex?

 

Edit: At least they still have brood, and hopefully they will make it. 

Edited by AntsGodzilla, March 17 2025 - 11:19 AM.

[bmb1bee]

I'd strongly avoid apple and feed them some kind of insect protein instead. Apples may have pesticides, which could potentially harm your ants. Plus, feeder insects like fruit flies and mealworms help the queen produce eggs.