4 replies to this topic

[Barristan]

Hi,

 

the second biggest German ant shop (according to the shop himself he is the world wide biggest ant shop) is selling Myrmecocystus mimicus colonies since around end of last year. So far so good.

 

However there are numerous reports that the colonies don't develop properly. At least 3 customers (myself included) did not receive any brood with the colonies (only queen + a few workers).

 

Another customer kept his colony since november 2024 in a Tar Heel Ants Mini Hearth nest, which is as far as I've heard really good for founding of honeypot ants.

When the customer explained it to the shop and wanted a replacement, he received the following response (translated via chat GPT and name removed):
 

 

Hello Mr. xxxxx,

 

If you believe these nests are specifically produced for honeypot ants, then we have different opinions here. We also have numerous shops in Germany that offer nests for meadow ants or ants from the forest.

 

At this point, I must step back and ask you to contact the shop as they should be able to explain what the issue is, especially since all of our ants have already successfully established colonies and are reproducing.

 

It remains true that honeypot ants will accept pretty much any nest, and farms like the S10 are particularly well-suited for this purpose. It's also questionable how you plan to properly and safely heat such a box as a nest. In the USA, where this producer is located, this isn't necessary as they have temperatures of almost daily 30 to 38 degrees. But we're in Germany, and our rooms are usually around 18 to 20 degrees.

 

I would not refund these ants - no nests from us were used, and these nests are simply not suitable for keeping these animals in Germany. One should question why the animals are developing well with us but not with you.

 

It's very sad that we have to discuss nests from a small mini shop in the USA, of which there are hundreds that aren't even licensed, as the sale of ants in the USA is prohibited. Depending on the state, you may collect them and keep them privately, but you cannot sell them.

 

I also add the original German version in case you want to translate it for yourself, or if some other Germans want to confirm that this translation is correct:
 

Hallo Herr xxxxx,

 

wenn sie der Meinung sind, dass diese Nester speziell für Honigtopf Ameisen produziert sind dann haben wir hier verschiedene Meinungen. Wir haben auch in Deutschland zahlreiche Shops die Nester für Wiesenameisen anbieten oder Ameisen aus dem Wald.

 

An der Stelle bin ich dann raus und bitte hier den Shop zu kontaktieren denn dieser wird ja sagen können woran es liegt da die Ameisen ja bei uns auch alle bereits erfolgreich gegründet haben und sich vermehren.

 

 

Es bleibt auch dabei Honigtopfameisen nehmen so ziemlich alle Nester an und gerade Farmen wie die S10 sind hier ideal dafür geeignet. Auch fraglich wie sie so einen Kasten als Nest anständig sicher beheizen wollen. In der USA wo dieser Produzent sitzt ist das nicht notwendig da sie dort Temperaturen von fast täglich 30 bis 38 Grad haben. Aber wir sind hier ja in Deutschland und unsere Räume sind hier meist eher bei 18 bis 20 Grad.

 

 

 

Ich würde diese Ameisen nicht erstatten, es wurden keine Nester von uns verwendet und diese Nester sind einfach nicht geeignet für die Haltung derer Tiere in Deutschland. Man sollte sich hier schon an der Stelle mal Fragen warum die Tiere sich bei uns entwickeln und bei Ihnen nicht.

 

 

 

Es ist an der Stelle schon sehr traurig, dass wir hier über Nester diskutieren müssen über einen kleinen Mini Shop in der USA von den es dort zig huderte gibt die nicht einmal zugelassen sind da der Verkauf von Ameisen in der USA verboten ist. Sie dürfen sie je nach Bundesstaat sammeln, privat halten aber nicht weiter verkaufen.

 

What do you think of this case? Do you think that there is something wrong with the colonies he sold and therefore they won't lay any eggs? Are Tar Heel Ant nests not suitable for these ants?

In Germany we have very strict customer protection laws, you have 2 year warranty by law however only in the first 6 months (1 year for non animals) the seller has to prove that the deficiency was the customer's fault and not the seller's. However that doesn't stop some shops to try to blame the customer and to refuse to send any replacement, like you saw in the mail response.

I'd also like to know your opinion on Myrmecocystus mimicus in general, especially how hard it is to make them found, if they at least lay eggs, etc.

Kind Regards

Andreas
 

 

Edited by Barristan, February 3 2025 - 12:12 AM.

[ReignofRage]

The "hearth" nests from THA are practically as close to an actual Myrmecocystus chamber as you can get on the consumer market and have been proven time and time again to house various species of the genus without issue. I personally think they aren't as great for founding, just due to size. A simple test tube setup with some sand is more than plenty to found queens of the genus. With that said, they will found okay in THA, just not as strongly or consistently when compared to test tubes. The nest shouldn't be the issue. Heating a THA hearth is not difficult, it's as simple as laying a heat cable along the glass or even taping a heat cable to the glass if needed. It is also funny that the seller thinks all the states that have Myrmecocystus have a daily room temperature of 30-38 degrees C (or even have that room temperature to begin with); air conditioning is quite common here, something he probably isn't used to . He also has zero knowledge about the laws around selling ants, they are not prohibited from being sold and bought.

 

It sounds like, to me, that the seller founded the queens and has never really cared for them or very minimally fed them (just sugars and not frequently) -- it is also very possible that the seller is not heating them. Myrmecocystus found with upwards of 20+ workers with a mediocre founding generation of around 10 workers. By the time these workers eclose, the brood for the second gen is already well underway development-wise. By November, colonies should have a second generation of workers and be anywhere from 20 to 50 workers in count. Often times, when a founded queen looses its nanitics or is kept in non-ample conditions, they tend to not refound. Once they get workers, the queen shifts mainly to having workers do everything for her.

 

If the law is 6 months and the seller has to prove that it is the customer's fault, you can simply refute their claims by providing hundreds (if not thousands) of images of healthy Myrmecocystus colonies in THA nests from the internet.

[kiedeerk]

These are probably neglected or just dying colonies. Honey pots can be unpredictable with some colonies thriving while others just randomly die off. It probably has to do with genetics of the queens because even in ideal and similar conditions some queens do much better than others. If these colonies only had a few workers with no brood by end of the year, they were either neglected or just bad colonies to begin with or boosted colonies where the queens were not fertile to begin with. The only thing you can do is provide heat and ample proteins and sugars and pray but in my experience the queens or colonies will never recover

[Ernteameise]

I am German, like you.

Are you in any of the German forums or FB groups?

If this is the shop I think it is, I have my own (not exactly favorable) thoughts. I have heard some other reports from German keepers that they sell infertile queens (or of poor health and the colonies have been boosted, meaning, brood of fertile colonies has been added to infertile queens), and I heard frequently that people have poor results with the honeypot ants (not only of this seller, but of others, too). 

These bad reports are the very reason I have so far not dared to buy these ants, especially at the price that is asked in Germany!

I get migranes when I see their advertising pictures of their latest collecting trips in the German ant FB group, because the dissonance between what people report about these guys and their advertising is so jarring. They recently came back from the Americas (this is where these queens come from, I would guess).

 

And keeping these ants at 18-20 degrees centigrade? What? This is the seller that sells the heated / thermo regulated nests, isn't it? So maybe use that?

And most people I know who have Tarheel products use heating cables. Just look at this very forum. Have these people even been to the US? They are aware that air condition is a thing and in the US (different from Germany, where people like to sweat) nearly every house has some form of air conditioning?

 

Tarheel ant nests should be perfect. They were developed with these species in mind! Sorry, but after I dealt with Mack from Tarheel ants personally before and got custom nests made, Mack knows what he is doing, thousands of people (including me) can attest to the fact that his nests work.

I am not convinced by the plastic contraptions that the shop sells as nests, sorry. I also do not think these plastic things are great for honeypots, who need to grip onto the ceiling.

 

Another thought, I have seen that Myrmecocystis also often found in pleometrosis, so buying a single queen might not be the way to go.

What might happen in that German shop is that they may have gotten some founding colonies that founded in pleometrosis and then separated the queens. Well, there is a reason that the workers select with which queen they want to continue and will kill the lesser quality queens. But to make a profit (these ants are expensive to buy in Germany) these lesser quality queens might be sold to customers.

My theory, no way I can prove this.

 

As for German customer protection laws....

all nice and pretty on paper, but how are you going to prove that the queen and workers that you bought is not infertile queen that has been boosted with brood from other queens (just to be able to sell these)?

Because, from previous report about this shop, they will always blame the customer. They will just laugh at the Tarheel Ants products (probably call them American made male cattle poo), since the seller (if it is the one I am thinking) has a very inflated opinion of themselves and thinks they have the best nests EVER and they know everything. They like to talk down on you.

Others have tried to no avail.

 

I am sorry, but this is pretty much on par with other things I have heard about this seller.

What a load of male cattle poop.

Edited by Ernteameise, February 3 2025 - 10:43 AM.

[Barristan]

As for German customer protection laws....

all nice and pretty on paper, but how are you going to prove that the queen and workers that you bought is not infertile queen that has been boosted with brood from other queens (just to be able to sell these)?

 

You don't have to within the first 6 months. The seller has to prove that it was buyer's fault not his § 477 I BGB
 

 

German Civil Code (BGB) § 477 Reversal of Burden of Proof (1) If a condition deviating from the requirements under § 434 or § 475b appears within one year after the transfer of risk, it is presumed that the goods were already defective at the time of transfer of risk, unless this presumption is incompatible with the nature of the goods or the defective condition. In the case of purchasing a living animal, this presumption applies for a period of six months after the transfer of risk.

 

The question is more if you are willing to go to court for a colony of around 50 €, most probably don't want to do that. The only thing you have to proof is that a colony did not lay any eggs or just doesn't have any or did not develop or died, that's what you have to prove, but not if it was your fault. The seller has to prove otherwise.

I mean it is the same with other goods. Let's say you buy a iPhone and for some reason it doesn't turn on. It'd be hard to proof that it wasn't your fault, that's why the burden of proof is reversed within the first 6 months (or 1 year if not a living animal).

To your other points: Yes I know a lot of stories about that shop, also that he threatens customers with legal actions if they don't remove bad ratings. He also threatened a lot of German forums, discord servers, bloggers (for example myself) and Youtubers if they dare to write about his shop in a negative way (which is not hard due to all the things he's done in the past). He also has threatened most of his German competitors or even took some legal actions against them.

Not quite nice business behavior overall.

PS: I wrote (in German) about my current problems with him on my blog I think ChatGPT or other LLMs do a quite nice job in translating if you are interested. There you can also find a blog post about a previous lawsuit he almost completely lost. (Only thing he one was the 'insulting part', since the facebookuser he sued also insulted him)

Edited by Barristan, February 3 2025 - 11:14 AM.