4 replies to this topic

[jabasson]

I'm no expert on the subject but just was gonna share this video where Schmidt, the inventor of the Schmidt pain index, shares that native americans would eat Eagle feathers covered with Pogonomyrmex and would receive "visions" from the "Great Spirit." I know this is a popular video but it isn't advertised for information, it's advertised for entertainment, and its just a really interesting piece of history to me. https://www.youtube....h?v=gsZzOtaHi6E 

So what I'm gathering is you can get high off ant poison . Story telling begins around 5:12, after the dude stings himself for a few minutes. 

 

This was found during my research for if I am ok with keeping harvester ants in my room, and I have mixed feelings. From what I gather individual stings suck like a wasp or worse but they won't swarm as bad as fire ants, and there is no swelling. Still not sure I want to keep them after watching the video though. Also kind of terrified how they described the pain to be less that of heat or stabbing, but unaesthetic pain, whatever that means. 

[ReignofRage]

Despite the genus having members that rank as the most potent venom (i.e. P. anzensis, P. maricopa, etc.), the stings of Pogonomyrmex are quite minor in comparison to hornets and other common stinging insects. Typically, their stings result in an initial sting with a radiant heat/warmth that can last an hour or so. It is difficult to determine how to describe the pain of their stings and insect stings due to each human having a different pain tolerance and allergenic reaction to the venom. I myself feel next to nothing from Pogonomyrmex stings and even stings from fire ants such as S. xyloni. However, I know several other people that get immediate raised sting sites, itchiness, decent levels of pain, pustules, etc. I wouldn't take the ritual from the Natives as something to be scared of the genus over. They are specifically and intentionally injecting themselves with a much higher quantity of venom than you would experience from a worker that escaped and somehow got on your hand/arm/body. For the average person, the venom from a sting, or even a few stings, will not make you hallucinate.

 

William Steele Creighton, a renowned entomologist and myrmecologist had wrote in his field journal, "Its sting is inconsequential. Not very painful an followed by a local irritation around the puncture which lasts only an hour or so. Little or no swelling." This is in reference to Pogonomyrmex anzensis when he collected the type series in 1951. For reference, P. anzensis was found to have a venom potency similar to that of P. maricopa, which has the most potent venom of all Insecta (Schmidt & Snelling, 2009). The minor reaction to a sting from P. anzensis is almost certainly due to having an underdeveloped venom gland that does not produce much venom. With that said, I think W.S. Creighton's explanation of the sting is a good explanation as a general for most common Pogonomyrmex spp. Larger species will have a worse sting due to injecting more total venom, but it's not bad at all.

I've collected and kept around 14 species of Pogonomyrmex and have never been stung accidently from captive workers. In the field, all of my received stings were purposeful to see how bad they were.

[jabasson]

Yeah I didn't think it would cause hallucinations as I'm not eating them, I was just worried if the colony escaped while I was asleep and I woke up swarmed. I also have a dog to worry about and when I saw Schmidt himself say that the sting was painful it concerned me seeing as this man has stung himself with some of the most painful stings from insects. I'm also worried about exposing my family to stings as they are already not a fan of me keeping ants in the house. I'm sure I could handle a good few stings without resenting my colony, but not my family. Still your good experience with keeping the species does help me be less concerned, also to my knowledge no one is allergic to stings in my family. 

Edited by jabasson, January 23 2025 - 11:06 PM.

[bmb1bee]

I was accidentally stung on the middle finger by a P. subdentatus worker once while feeding them from a test tube. It wasn't much more than a light needle-like prick, with a very, very slight burning sensation that didn't last much more than a couple hours. I wouldn't worry too much about them if the people in your household aren't specifically allergic to them. It's worth noting that they're fairly easy to contain, as they are larger ants and most species in the genus are poor climbers (with the exception of P. rugosus and other members of the barbatus group). I'd recommend to just have a secure formicarium situated in a secure place.

 

On a side note, Schmidt's notes on the Pogonomyrmex species he has sampled shouldn't speak on behalf of the entire genus, as the sting pain and venom potency varies between each species. Just because he rated P. maricopa a 3 on the index doesn't mean that species like P. subnitidus or P. californicus are anywhere near as painful.

[Ernteameise]

As someone who is prone to halluzinations (I got them from fever from a very early age and I even once halluzinated from a very hot Thai curry, my brain is just wired weirdly) I actually think that could work.

However, I never got halluzinations from insect stings, and I have been stung by local fire ants, burning hair caterpillars, wasps, hornets, bees and so on (I was a very inquisitive kid and insects always fascinated me). But of course even as a kid I never tried to eat them.

I also did read Schmidt's book (The Sting of the Wild) and found that fascinating.

The most fascinating point about the Harvester ants is- why do the American harvester ants, which are Myrmecines like their old world counterparts, still have their sting and have a potent poison, while my own European harvester ants (Messor barbarus) have lost their sting? Schmidt suspects in his book, that potent insects poisons, that are painful to predators, evolved because these insects have something to lose, like a large grain store (of honey in bees) which they have to protect at all costs to survive.

So why is it that Messor spp. have lost their ability to sting, even when they can have several kilograms of grain in their nests (and people have been raiding these nests in famines and these ants are even described in the bible as fruitful harvesters)?

For me, this does not make sense. Pogonomyrmex form colonies of about the same size as Messor, and I assume they collect a similar amount of seed.

However, I have NO experience with new world harvester ants, since I am from Europe, so I can neither say anything about their grain collections nor anything about their sting.

 

As for your fear that your ants would escape and swarm you or your family.

I have kept ants in my youth, in my small bedroom.

My family was also not impressed, but at least my granddad supported me (I even was able to keep a small colony of protected Formica ants with the help of my granddad who was friends with the local forester).

I had all kinds of ants and other insects escape into my room.

Even when some of my European harvesters escape now, I never ever have been swarmed by them before.

I think it does not happen with any ant species we keep as pets.

They just do not see us as prey, and even my most aggressive ants (European fire ants which I had as a kid) gave up on the attack after a while when I retreated. They lose interest after a while, since it is just not in the interest of their colonies to chase down any predators. They protect their nest, and make the predator leave.

They do not plan an escape and then try to murder you in your sleep in an elaborate revenge plot.

This will not happen.

 

Even in the tropics, the army ants, do not really swarm humans.

There is a VERY excellent book on army ants, with awesome pictures (Army Ants- Nature's Ultimate Social Hunters) which I highly recommend, as well as Mark Moffets "Adventures among ants" where he described being swarmed by marauder ants and army ants- reason, he was observing them, got too close to the column and then was sitting there unmoving for a while. He just retreated a few meters and all was fine again.

The reports of humans living with army ants, they actually welcome the swarm visiting their houses, since the ants move through, clean up the vermin, and then move on. The humans just go into a different room while the ants do their job in another room of the house. There is this report from one person (it is from one of the above books, but I do not remember, which) who was sleeping and the family had not told him that they expected their ant visitors that day, so the person woke up covered in army ants. The person retreated out of their bedroom into the living room, where breakfast was happening and they were just like "oups, sorry about that" and then everybody went on with their lives, 5 hours later, the ants finished up with the house and were gone.

So nobody died, everyone was happy, the house was cleaned free of charge, no injuries, no lasting effects. And the visitor who got the shock had a fun and exciting story to tell to his friends at home.

 

In short- I would not worry too much about your ants escaping and then trying to swarm you or anyone in the house.

If they escape and swarm anything, then it would be some food lying around.