21 replies to this topic

[PDuncan67]

My camponotus floridanus colony is on the verge of a population explosion, and I am not quite sure what to do next.

 

As you can see, I have two DIY nests connected together, with a DIY outworld.  The nest on the left is the primary one and where the queen lives.

It is jammed up with brood, and there are a ton of brand new eggs. So many it startled me into creating this post LOL (you just can’t see them in the picture.)

 

In the last week they have moved brood into the small outworld on top (left). There are a few brood and several ants in the nest on the right, but for the most part it’s nothing compared to the volume of ants in the left nest. (Like 90/10) Not sure why they won’t go in there. I think the humidity and temperature are the same (I measure everything I can). I used the same material and methods to build each. I guess it’s just ants doing ant stuff.

 

I added a larger outworld a few months ago because feeding them was getting unmanageable.

 

For transparency, this is my first colony.

I got my queen in December of last year.

At this point, I am feeding them protein every other day, 4-5 cut up meal worms, and a little insect jelly. They get that every other day.

There are rock sugar pebbles in the outworlds at all times.

They also always have 2 sources of fresh water. Once a week I’ll add a water feeder full of nectar but they drink it up on a day (as opposed to a week for plain water) so it’s more of a treat.

 

Also I have a heater in the room so it’s almost between 77-80F (25-26.7C)

The nests are humified and are always around 44-48%

 

But back to my original question/problem what do I do next? And by that I mean, I want to keep a healthy colony, but I also need one that I can manage.

 

Do I just keep buying bigger or add multiple outworlds?

How do you manage the size of your colony?

Am I feeding them too much?

 

 

Thanks

 

Attached Images

• 
• 
• 

[RushmoreAnts]

As long as you're cleaning up after them properly and removing old food there isn't really such a thing as feeding them too much. Give them time and see if they move completely into the new nest. If not, it's not hurting anyone if those pupae stay in that small little outworld that really has a very similar volume to the nest itself. I'd just get a bigger nest for them, even if they do move into the new one it looks like that won't last them long either.

[Full_Frontal_Yeti]

I only have one colony myself of pogonomyrmex occidentalis, and it is my first. My information will be more generic or specific to my ants, but not specific to your ants.

 

1: i get the idea that ants kind of prefer to be packed in tighter together. With plenty of space to use and conditions throughout kept close. My ants pack tightly into the areas they do. While the rest of the nest remains lower density. But over time as the colony has grown there are more of the dense areas to be seen in new places.

 

 

2: as i understand it heat and protein are the things we can control that are directly related to colony growth rates. Allowing their temps to be slightly lower avg and reducing the amount of proteins they get ought to have some slowing down influence on their growth rate.

 

 

3: having a high offset ratio of nest/outworld should help a little with the feeding/cleaning up. While a colony can have more nest than they want, and start filling up the unwanted space with refuse (which is bad). They can't have too much outwolrd. Nothing we can give them is larger than the real no walls open world of outside. So we can grow the outworld to whatever size meets the sweet spot, for how much space we have to work with, and how easy it is to deal in their maintenance when the outworld is not totally filled up by a mob of ants, because it's big enough for their numbers.

 

 

4: from the Ant's POV, they smell more than they see. So an outworld with a lid is very likely to be indistinguishable from the inside of the nest to the ants. This is why you see them bring brood to the outworld. If the ants find the environmental conditions to be good there for whatever reason, and believe it is safely inside the nest. Then they will bring brood there, wherever that is. I think only a fairly small % of ants are so light averse as to not exhibit this brood in outworld behavior when in captivity. If they determine conditions are good for brood there.
My ants move the late stage brood back and forth several times every 24 hours between the hottest parts of the nest and the most humid parts of the nest. They used to bring brood to the outworld semi-regularly until i grew the nests enough to handle all their brood piles.

 

 

5: Culling. If your available space for the ants is a bit limited to be too small to provide all the space their colony size might need for a good healthy environment. Then culling some of the colony might be your only viable option. Pooter up some from the outworld until things don't look so crowded out there. I use a pot of boiling water as the fastest kill method i can think of. Or if you have a use for and the means to get them. Their brood can be taken as food for other critters instead of culling active ants.

 

 

 

btw, nice looking colony. I hope things go easy for you figuring out the size controlling/space providing solutions.

[ANTdrew]

You can read through my Crematogaster journal to see how I deal with massive colonies.

[rptraut]

Hello PDuncan67;

 

My second season Camponotus pennsylvanicus colonies fill one large space in their nest even though other chambers are empty.   Even if a large chamber is available, they crowd together in one or two areas.   

 

 

There's a couple of reasons why my ants would avoid putting brood in a chamber.    One, if it's wet or overly moist.   My Camponotus ants never nest in the chamber with the water tower in it.   They only use the high and dry chambers.     Yours might be different.    Second, if there's no reason for them to move because of a difference in temperature.    I find my queens like to stay in a dark, cool, secluded spot where they lay their eggs and raise larvae.   When the larvae pupate, most ants will move them to a place that's warmer.  If you could heat or warm the right-hand nest (or cool the left-hand nest), it might entice them to move cocoons to the warmer chamber.   

 

 

I start to consider population control when the ants in the outworld are constantly climbing or attempting to climb the walls and escape.   There's usually a spot where an ant escaped before that others constantly try to duplicate or there's a lot of escapes while I'm feeding or cleaning them.    I've used two methods to deal with this problem.   My formicaria are usually a combination of nest and outworld, so as a colony grows, I just add another compartment.   But once a colony reaches an acceptable size for me, culling is necessary, in my opinion, to keep it that way.    

 

 

I have a Camponotus colony (above) that I want to maintain as a portable display that I can take for demonstrations.    This isn't easy with these ants because they can increase quickly in size in year four.    I could tell when it was time to remove some ants when a number of them were climbing the walls and trying to get out of the open top formicarium.   There were also a lot of ants running around aimlessly or just hanging out in the outworld.    I removed sixty ants from the colony and the overnight difference was remarkable.    There was no more wall climbing or escape attempts.   Everyone was busy actually doing something and raising brood.   I did the same thing about a month later with the same effect.   I took that colony in my car to a meeting last night.  I could never pick up other colonies where I've used the "add another chamber" policy, they're just too big.

 

 

I've also had to cull my Tetramorium colonies as they eventually outgrow anything I've housed them in.   They've also thinned themselves a couple of times because they lost a lot of workers because of escapes.  You can see when there's a large number of pupae about to eclose, that's when I cull some ants if they're overcrowded.    But don't be too quick to thin your ants, I've noticed a natural "die-off" of workers after the first batch of brood is raised in spring.   I usually consider culling a last resort when I can't feed them without a lot of escapes, or they grow to an unmanageable size.   

RPT

 

 

[OhNoNotAgain]

I was just writing in another thread about bonsai'ing my ant colonies. To be honest, I only feed protein like once a week (or sometimes less). My colonies maintain a constant population year after year, so they never outrgow their formicaria - unless I want them to, in which case I feed more/more often. I have so many colonies and a not-very-large-home, so I seriously cannot move them all into large set-ups. It helps when they stay at a manageable size.

 

You do not need to cull if you just limit the protein quantity/frequency. (For some ants, depending on your room temp, you can also limit population growth by reducing heating or not heating at all.)

 

The other thing is, once ants hit some number of workers (e.g. 2000 in a Labyrinth) and they are kind of crowded, the dynamics change. They are constantly trying to escape and expand, and it becomes a little weird - they become more like a hungry, constantly moving fluid that leaks out any cracks. I prefer ants at the colony size before that stage. Edited to add: just read more of the reply before this one, and YES, exactly. There's a dynamic at certain population size ratio to available space, or something like that, and removing a few workers can change the equation.

Edited by OhNoNotAgain, August 13 2024 - 10:27 PM.

[Ernteameise]

 

 

5: Culling. If your available space for the ants is a bit limited to be too small to provide all the space their colony size might need for a good healthy environment. Then culling some of the colony might be your only viable option. Pooter up some from the outworld until things don't look so crowded out there. I use a pot of boiling water as the fastest kill method i can think of. Or if you have a use for and the means to get them. Their brood can be taken as food for other critters instead of culling active ants.

 

Just a note on humanely killing invertebrates.

During the veterinary conference I went to, I learned that really, the most humane way would be to quickly shredder them. This is the ethical recommendation for food insects, for example. No quicker way.

 

At a home setting, FREEZING is the way to go. Remove the ants, and freeze them until they are iced through (depending on species, that is a couple of hours to 2 weeks, since some ants have anti-freeze in their blood, like Acorn Ants, they survive being frozen for short periods). Cooling / Freezing can also be used as a mild form of anesthesia.

 

Boiling and cooking live invertebrates is a BRUTAL way to go. It is pure torture. They will feel it how they heat up, first all their nerve endings on the body surface on fire, and then the organs slowly start to boil.

Boiling is NOT a humane way of killing.

 

I am not critisising you, by the way, just telling you what the veterinary profession has learned about pain in invertebrates (and the researcher in question also presented his study on pain in tarantulas at the conference).

 

I also have a fast growing Lasius niger colony at home, and I have actually started to remove puppae as food for my betta fish, who absolutely loves them. Since I do it fast and efficient, I have not noticed a slow in growth (aka. stress) from me taking brood.

Edited by Ernteameise, August 13 2024 - 11:13 PM.

[rptraut]

Hello PDuncan67;

Just a couple of other points I should have mentioned.

Don’t use a pooter to remove Camponotus ants unless you have a filter which will remove the acid they can spray. It is harmful to your lungs.

To safely remove ants, I attach a small empty cube to my setup and if ants are crowded they will very quickly enter it. When the desired number of ants has been counted, I detach it, close all tubes, and place the ant filled cube in the freezer.

One of the things I enjoy the most is watching my ants raise brood. I also enjoy watching them feed. I feed protein almost every day to watch this activity. What else is there to watch in an ant colony if not feeding and raising brood? I’d rather cull ants that are surplus than limit feed my colonies to keep them small. To be healthy, a bonsai tree has to grow every spring and that new growth is then pruned to reveal the original design of the tree. I think ant colonies are much the same. They have to grow to be healthy, but some of that growth has to be pruned away to keep the colony to a manageable size.
RPT

[Full_Frontal_Yeti]

 

 

 

5: Culling. If your available space for the ants is a bit limited to be too small to provide all the space their colony size might need for a good healthy environment. Then culling some of the colony might be your only viable option. Pooter up some from the outworld until things don't look so crowded out there. I use a pot of boiling water as the fastest kill method i can think of. Or if you have a use for and the means to get them. Their brood can be taken as food for other critters instead of culling active ants.

 

Just a note on humanely killing invertebrates.

During the veterinary conference I went to, I learned that really, the most humane way would be to quickly shredder them. This is the ethical recommendation for food insects, for example. No quicker way.

 

At a home setting, FREEZING is the way to go. Remove the ants, and freeze them until they are iced through (depending on species, that is a couple of hours to 2 weeks, since some ants have anti-freeze in their blood, like Acorn Ants, they survive being frozen for short periods). Cooling / Freezing can also be used as a mild form of anesthesia.

 

Boiling and cooking live invertebrates is a BRUTAL way to go. It is pure torture. They will feel it how they heat up, first all their nerve endings on the body surface on fire, and then the organs slowly start to boil.

Boiling is NOT a humane way of killing.

 

I am not critisising you, by the way, just telling you what the veterinary profession has learned about pain in invertebrates (and the researcher in question also presented his study on pain in tarantulas at the conference).

 

I also have a fast growing Lasius niger colony at home, and I have actually started to remove puppae as food for my betta fish, who absolutely loves them. Since I do it fast and efficient, I have not noticed a slow in growth (aka. stress) from me taking brood.

 

 

I'd say that my POV is about speed. It's not abut the suffering of the ant as much as me.

I'd certainly presume to not debate your schooling and topic epertise, but maybe I'm concerned about things from a  differetn POV.

 

I do not imagine that slowly freezing to death over the course of a longer time, is a low strees easy way to go out.

Would it not be stressful to you to feel the cold creeping in and suffering the effects of hypothermia, powerless to do anything about it?

I'd feel fairly confedient if the temps are getting dangerous, their strees resposne to that is increaseing.

 

While i note that an ant(my ants) hittnig the boiling water appear to cease any and all signs of life, about instantly.
As if their tiny bodies heat up so fast as to cook their brains in less than a 1 second.

 

I was less concerned about the measurable amount of suffering of any one sample moment.

And more concerned that there were as few of those moments to for them to sample as possible.

I note that many insects carry on showing signs of life even when their bodies have been torn to pieces.

And it is rather unpleasent a feeling to crush one, though no doubt that ends their life quickly too. But if you don't do it quite right they are still wiggeling.

 

There is no fail at the task, or unpleasent physical snesation memoires to gain, by dropping them into a pot of boiling water.

And if their existance of sensations ends in one second or less. This would seem as low a stress path as I can find.

Where the strees is not just theirs, but mine too.

Edited by Full_Frontal_Yeti, August 14 2024 - 9:12 AM.

[OwlThatLikesAnts]

 

 

5: Culling. If your available space for the ants is a bit limited to be too small to provide all the space their colony size might need for a good healthy environment. Then culling some of the colony might be your only viable option. Pooter up some from the outworld until things don't look so crowded out there. I use a pot of boiling water as the fastest kill method i can think of. Or if you have a use for and the means to get them. Their brood can be taken as food for other critters instead of culling active ants

 

 

 

I second about the boiling because what do you think is faster (the thing is in Celsius)

 

A. -15 degrees (the average freezer temp)

 

or

 

B 100 degrees 

 

Obviously B 

 

It is the same with us where (since we are bigger)  if it is winter and it is -30 and we have no winter clothes on, we will die a slow death filled with pain and like you said if it was acorn ants it will be worse because of how they have to endure longer. If we were thrown in a vat of boiling water at 1000 degrees (imagine if it was possible) we would die instantly, also ants and other invertebrates don't feel pain like we do, they just "feel" if they are damaged or not but they COULD feel pain, but they only feel it after they were hurt and the wound was healed as they actually learnt to be more careful, but if they are dead, ummmmmmmmmm, don't think they can come back from that one and learn

 

Do not take this as an offence because I only came to say that boiling IS a humane thing

Edited by OwlThatLikesAnts, August 14 2024 - 10:42 AM.

[M_Ants]

I was just writing in another thread about bonsai'ing my ant colonies. To be honest, I only feed protein like once a week (or sometimes less). My colonies maintain a constant population year after year, so they never outrgow their formicaria - unless I want them to, in which case I feed more/more often. I have so many colonies and a not-very-large-home, so I seriously cannot move them all into large set-ups. It helps when they stay at a manageable size.

 

You do not need to cull if you just limit the protein quantity/frequency. (For some ants, depending on your room temp, you can also limit population growth by reducing heating or not heating at all.)

 

The other thing is, once ants hit some number of workers (e.g. 2000 in a Labyrinth) and they are kind of crowded, the dynamics change. They are constantly trying to escape and expand, and it becomes a little weird - they become more like a hungry, constantly moving fluid that leaks out any cracks. I prefer ants at the colony size before that stage. Edited to add: just read more of the reply before this one, and YES, exactly. There's a dynamic at certain population size ratio to available space, or something like that, and removing a few workers can change the equation.

I also bonsai colonies but I believe it's likely unhealthy long term and may lead to a shorter lifespan of the colony at some point.

[Ernteameise]

Well, in several studies it has been shown that killing invertebrates by boiling and heat will cause them pain and distress and it is now by EU law also forbidden to kill lobsters by boiling without stunning them beforehand.

Sorry, that is the scientific facts.

At the conference, I sat next to and spoke at length with the very guy who is doing the ethic assessment for the UK concerning use of insects as food and how to do it humanely.

He even did experiments himself.

He knows what he is talking about.

(he also presented a poster on how he attached sensors to tarantulas to measure their pain response, and this included heat pain).

 

I am actually very happy the UK has such a great and knowledgeable guy doing the ethical assessment.

Knowing the EU, we will only do either something completely half-[censored] or a bad copy paste.

 

As for freezing-

all of you are viewing this from the POV of a warm blooded animal (human).

In invertebrates, freezing actually makes them go to sleep and will slow down their metabolic processes, which also include the ion pumps of their nerves.

So it basically stops any pain being felt and the information sent to the nerve ganglia or even being processed.

So yes, indeed, it makes them go to sleep, can be used as an anesthetic and is more or less painless.

Of course it is not completely without distress (I assume also natural winter is huge stress for any animal in nature) but short of shreddering the invertebrates, it is the only other humane way.

 

It is not about what makes YOU feel better.

And ant bodies just work a bit different that your human bodies work.

Science.

Take it or leave it.

I just wanted to give the latest veterinary input on the topic.

Edited by Ernteameise, August 14 2024 - 1:11 PM.

[Ernteameise]

 

 

 

Do not take this as an offence because I only came to say that boiling IS a humane thing

 

No, it really is NOT. See my post above.

Edited by Ernteameise, August 14 2024 - 1:07 PM.

[IdioticMouse26]

I would decrease the amount of protein your giving them. Or build them a massive formicarium. Since the colony is free to expand to wherever they want in a fromicarium, I think it'll be able to contain the growth for at least a year or two. Although it really depends on how big you make the formicarium. Take this with a grain of salt, I've haven't had a colony have population growth that big, so it's just speculation. And I've seen a lot of talk above about freezing vs boiling ants, and I think freezing is a more humane way to go. If freezing was almost instantaneous like boiling, then I think they'll both be equally painful. But freezing drops the temprature gradually, it doesnt go from, say, 20C to -15C instantly. The ants will have some time to fall "asleep" in a temprature zone that is not painful to them. Although, since Camponotus floridanus doesn't hibernate, I'm not sure how it would turn out.

Edited by IdioticMouse26, August 15 2024 - 4:23 PM.

[OhNoNotAgain]

I also bonsai colonies but I believe it's likely unhealthy long term and may lead to a shorter lifespan of the colony at some point.

 

 

 

 

Just curious about why it might be unhealthy and at what tipping point. I mean, I don't think most mortal keepers are likely to be able to/want to keep up with the full-blown growth rate of any species that pumps out 500+ new workers per DAY anyway, but there must be many gradations between the extremes. And how much shorter of a lifespan are we potentially talking about (assuming the colony is fed at least enough to replenish 100+ workers per year).

Edited by OhNoNotAgain, August 14 2024 - 11:41 PM.

[Mushu]

It seems like you can perhaps fit a Tar Heel Ants nucleus and a larger outworld. You an also stack outworlds up for vertical space. Think like a tree, ants would forage in trees. I think with that setup you'll observe more interesting behavior and is not too large of a colony where it will get out of hand. Indeed you'll eventually need to cull. 

[OwlThatLikesAnts]

Well, in several studies it has been shown that killing invertebrates by boiling and heat will cause them pain and distress and it is now by EU law also forbidden to kill lobsters by boiling without stunning them beforehand.

Sorry, that is the scientific facts.

At the conference, I sat next to and spoke at length with the very guy who is doing the ethic assessment for the UK concerning use of insects as food and how to do it humanely.

He even did experiments himself.

He knows what he is talking about.

(he also presented a poster on how he attached sensors to tarantulas to measure their pain response, and this included heat pain).

 

I am actually very happy the UK has such a great and knowledgeable guy doing the ethical assessment.

Knowing the EU, we will only do either something completely half-[censored] or a bad copy paste.

 

As for freezing-

all of you are viewing this from the POV of a warm blooded animal (human).

In invertebrates, freezing actually makes them go to sleep and will slow down their metabolic processes, which also include the ion pumps of their nerves.

So it basically stops any pain being felt and the information sent to the nerve ganglia or even being processed.

So yes, indeed, it makes them go to sleep, can be used as an anesthetic and is more or less painless.

Of course it is not completely without distress (I assume also natural winter is huge stress for any animal in nature) but short of shreddering the invertebrates, it is the only other humane way.

 

It is not about what makes YOU feel better.

And ant bodies just work a bit different that your human bodies work.

Science.

Take it or leave it.

I just wanted to give the latest veterinary input on the topic.

I will take the science    (and in shredding you mean to rip them apart?)

Edited by OwlThatLikesAnts, August 16 2024 - 5:38 AM.

[Ernteameise]

 

Well, in several studies it has been shown that killing invertebrates by boiling and heat will cause them pain and distress and it is now by EU law also forbidden to kill lobsters by boiling without stunning them beforehand.

Sorry, that is the scientific facts.

At the conference, I sat next to and spoke at length with the very guy who is doing the ethic assessment for the UK concerning use of insects as food and how to do it humanely.

He even did experiments himself.

He knows what he is talking about.

(he also presented a poster on how he attached sensors to tarantulas to measure their pain response, and this included heat pain).

 

I am actually very happy the UK has such a great and knowledgeable guy doing the ethical assessment.

Knowing the EU, we will only do either something completely half-[censored] or a bad copy paste.

 

As for freezing-

all of you are viewing this from the POV of a warm blooded animal (human).

In invertebrates, freezing actually makes them go to sleep and will slow down their metabolic processes, which also include the ion pumps of their nerves.

So it basically stops any pain being felt and the information sent to the nerve ganglia or even being processed.

So yes, indeed, it makes them go to sleep, can be used as an anesthetic and is more or less painless.

Of course it is not completely without distress (I assume also natural winter is huge stress for any animal in nature) but short of shreddering the invertebrates, it is the only other humane way.

 

It is not about what makes YOU feel better.

And ant bodies just work a bit different that your human bodies work.

Science.

Take it or leave it.

I just wanted to give the latest veterinary input on the topic.

I will take the science    (and in shredding you mean to rip them apart?)

 

As in putting them into a shredder / food processor, a machine that has fast moving sharp rotating blades.

[OwlThatLikesAnts]

 

 

Well, in several studies it has been shown that killing invertebrates by boiling and heat will cause them pain and distress and it is now by EU law also forbidden to kill lobsters by boiling without stunning them beforehand.

Sorry, that is the scientific facts.

At the conference, I sat next to and spoke at length with the very guy who is doing the ethic assessment for the UK concerning use of insects as food and how to do it humanely.

He even did experiments himself.

He knows what he is talking about.

(he also presented a poster on how he attached sensors to tarantulas to measure their pain response, and this included heat pain).

 

I am actually very happy the UK has such a great and knowledgeable guy doing the ethical assessment.

Knowing the EU, we will only do either something completely half-[censored] or a bad copy paste.

 

As for freezing-

all of you are viewing this from the POV of a warm blooded animal (human).

In invertebrates, freezing actually makes them go to sleep and will slow down their metabolic processes, which also include the ion pumps of their nerves.

So it basically stops any pain being felt and the information sent to the nerve ganglia or even being processed.

So yes, indeed, it makes them go to sleep, can be used as an anesthetic and is more or less painless.

Of course it is not completely without distress (I assume also natural winter is huge stress for any animal in nature) but short of shreddering the invertebrates, it is the only other humane way.

 

It is not about what makes YOU feel better.

And ant bodies just work a bit different that your human bodies work.

Science.

Take it or leave it.

I just wanted to give the latest veterinary input on the topic.

I will take the science    (and in shredding you mean to rip them apart?)

 

As in putting them into a shredder / food processor, a machine that has fast moving sharp rotating blades.

 

wow, ummmmmmm, now it seems like there is no humane sounding way to cull ants

[Ernteameise]

 

 

 

Well, in several studies it has been shown that killing invertebrates by boiling and heat will cause them pain and distress and it is now by EU law also forbidden to kill lobsters by boiling without stunning them beforehand.

Sorry, that is the scientific facts.

At the conference, I sat next to and spoke at length with the very guy who is doing the ethic assessment for the UK concerning use of insects as food and how to do it humanely.

He even did experiments himself.

He knows what he is talking about.

(he also presented a poster on how he attached sensors to tarantulas to measure their pain response, and this included heat pain).

 

I am actually very happy the UK has such a great and knowledgeable guy doing the ethical assessment.

Knowing the EU, we will only do either something completely half-[censored] or a bad copy paste.

 

As for freezing-

all of you are viewing this from the POV of a warm blooded animal (human).

In invertebrates, freezing actually makes them go to sleep and will slow down their metabolic processes, which also include the ion pumps of their nerves.

So it basically stops any pain being felt and the information sent to the nerve ganglia or even being processed.

So yes, indeed, it makes them go to sleep, can be used as an anesthetic and is more or less painless.

Of course it is not completely without distress (I assume also natural winter is huge stress for any animal in nature) but short of shreddering the invertebrates, it is the only other humane way.

 

It is not about what makes YOU feel better.

And ant bodies just work a bit different that your human bodies work.

Science.

Take it or leave it.

I just wanted to give the latest veterinary input on the topic.

I will take the science    (and in shredding you mean to rip them apart?)

 

As in putting them into a shredder / food processor, a machine that has fast moving sharp rotating blades.

 

wow, ummmmmmm, now it seems like there is no humane sounding way to cull ants

 

Nah, it is so fast, it kills them instantly.

(as opposed to for example boiling, where they will have at least a couple seconds of ultimate agony).

 

Not sure if you eat meat? Or are you vegan/ vegetarian?

I just try to find something to explain what happens in a metaphoric way / descriptive way and find equivalents.

As for the freezing- the freezing is pretty much what we do at a slaughterhouse.

In (non-jew/ muslim) slaughterhouses, the animals are stunned first, before they are killed by bleeding out (in Germany, in the animal protection law, slaughter is defined as killing by bleeding out after stunning the animal).

If you kill an animal in a kosher / halal way (jews and muslims), the animal is killed WITHOUT stunning and just by bleeding out (in full consciousness). There needs to be a special permit in Germany to be allowed to kill an animal that way.

As part of my veterinary training, I actually had to do 3 months duty at a slaughterhouse and take part in the proceedings. It was .... educational, to say the least.

Many vets in my semester stopped eating meat after the experience.

I myself grew up on a farm, and even as a small kid, I watched the slaughter and my grandparents and parents explained everything to me, so I understood what was necessary to do the slaughter in the least stressful and most humane way.

 

And NO, I do NOT want to cause a discussion about veganism and the cruelty of eating meat and similar.

I think we can all agree that industrial farming and slaughter are NOT humane.

On the other hand, having witnessed kosher slaughter at the slaughterhouse, this can also be done in a calm, low stress way and does not have to be unnecessarily cruel and brutal (the rabbi who did it was VERY good at what he did and I had the impression that the animals were LESS stressed out when he processed them as when the normal butchers were doing it with stunning).

Edited by Ernteameise, August 17 2024 - 7:20 AM.