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What's the difference between Lasius Niger and Lasius Neoniger?


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8 replies to this topic

#1 Offline Stubyvast - Posted June 20 2024 - 4:46 PM

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I currently am keeping a Lasius Niger colony, with about 50+ workers and about the same amount of brood. However, looking at CanadaAntColony, I discovered that "hey, my queen looks a lot like the Neoniger queen." so I checked to see what the Lasius Niger queen looked like. I saw basically no difference. So is there any way to identify which species I'm actually raising? That would be awesome. Also I don't know much about the scientific names for ant body parts, except for terms such as Gaster, Abdomen, Mandibles, antennae, etc. so speaking in layman terms would be appreciated. Thanks everyone!

 

 


Currently raising: 

Myrmica rubra (1 queen +  ~5 workers)

Lasius niger (single queen + ~90+ workers)

Lasius neoniger (3 single queen + brood)

Formica spp. (Queen [likely parasitic, needs brood])

Formica pacifica (Queen)

Also keeping a friend's tetramorium immigrans for the foreseeable future. Thanks CoffeBlock!


#2 Offline Mettcollsuss - Posted June 20 2024 - 7:14 PM

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L. niger is native to Europe but has been introduced to parts of Canada. I don't have any personal experience with L. niger but from what I can find online they are fairly diverse in habitat, while L. neoniger is native and is mostly limited to open habitats like fields. lawns, and prairies. In terms of physical identifying characteristics, unfortunately most of ant identification is very technical. L. neoniger is generally lighter in color, yellowish to light brown, as opposed to dark brown to black in L. niger. Aside from that, the difference is mainly in the clypeus (the segment of the head just above the mandibles, think of it as like the upper lip of the ant), is rounded in L. niger while it's somewhat pointed in L. neoniger. L. niger is most similar to L. ponderosae, which is separated by having less pubescence (very small, fine hairs) on the clypeus.


Edited by Mettcollsuss, June 20 2024 - 7:34 PM.

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#3 Offline Serafine - Posted June 21 2024 - 12:33 AM

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You're going to see the difference over time.

Lasius niger colonies get much much bigger and once beyond a few thousand workers are batshit insanely aggressive.


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#4 Offline Stubyvast - Posted June 21 2024 - 12:11 PM

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Hmm yes I'm beginning to see some of the aggressiveness! Okay so from your guys' help I've determined that I am most likely raising L. niger, not neoniger. Thanks for your help!


Currently raising: 

Myrmica rubra (1 queen +  ~5 workers)

Lasius niger (single queen + ~90+ workers)

Lasius neoniger (3 single queen + brood)

Formica spp. (Queen [likely parasitic, needs brood])

Formica pacifica (Queen)

Also keeping a friend's tetramorium immigrans for the foreseeable future. Thanks CoffeBlock!


#5 Offline The_Gaming-gate - Posted July 5 2024 - 3:12 PM

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L. Niger is from Europe. L. neoniger is from North America. I believe something about the hairs on neoniger and Niger can also differentiate them, but don’t quote me on that.
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Ants are small creatures... but together... they can rule the world.

 

 

 


#6 Offline Stubyvast - Posted July 5 2024 - 6:57 PM

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Yes I've heard about the North America/Europe difference before, but I'm pretty sure that L. Niger managed to get across via ship a while ago. Okay cool to note about the hairs! I'll look into that. 


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Currently raising: 

Myrmica rubra (1 queen +  ~5 workers)

Lasius niger (single queen + ~90+ workers)

Lasius neoniger (3 single queen + brood)

Formica spp. (Queen [likely parasitic, needs brood])

Formica pacifica (Queen)

Also keeping a friend's tetramorium immigrans for the foreseeable future. Thanks CoffeBlock!


#7 Offline NotAxo - Posted July 25 2024 - 5:34 AM

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I really think they should both be described as either neoniger or niger as they both arnt that different to me, and instead, they should be described as a slightly different strain, not too different, but also not too similar. I think they might be evolving into 2 different species during our time. Who knows?

Currently raising : C. Parius (2x), C. Vitiosus (2x), Carebara Diversa (1x), C. irratians (2x), M. brunnea (1x)

Have raised : Solenopsis

Enjoy anting, NotAxo :D


#8 Offline Mettcollsuss - Posted July 25 2024 - 8:07 AM

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I really think they should both be described as either neoniger or niger as they both arnt that different to me, and instead, they should be described as a slightly different strain, not too different, but also not too similar. I think they might be evolving into 2 different species during our time. Who knows?

I do understand that they seem very similar to those who are unfamiliar or newer to the world of ants, but I can promise you that they are very definitively separate species. Lasius neoniger is just a name, it's not actually that similar, it's not the "American equivalent" to niger (if anything, that would be L. ponderosae); There are several species more similar to L. niger than L. neoniger is. As previously mentioned in this thread they differ in several notable characters, including coloration, habitat and ecology, and morphology. They're also genetically quite distinct too. The most recent phylogeny I could find that includes L. neoniger is the one in Schär et al., 2022, which places L. niger and L. neoniger in completely separate clades of the former subgenus Lasius.

 

Human brains love to see patterns and place things into categories, but the more distant, the more dissimilar they are from us, the more we have a bias towards lumping stuff together. If we approached insects and their taxonomy the same way we do for our own taxonomic clades, if we were truly consistent with our taxonomy across all life, there would be so many more bug taxa. For example, according to Borowiec et al., 2021, the estimated crown age of the genus Formica is about 26 million years ago, give or take a few million. To compare that to the taxonomy of our own lineage, that's roughly equivalent (if my quick googling is correct) to the age of the Catarrhini, the lineage that contains all apes and old world monkeys.


Edited by Mettcollsuss, July 25 2024 - 8:10 AM.

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#9 Offline Serafine - Posted July 25 2024 - 8:28 AM

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Both species are very different. They are different in color (at least on average), have different teeth, different hair, different colony size, different temperament.

Lasius niger can grow to 50.000+ workers and create a hill of half a meter in height. They will also absolutely trash any ant colony nearby if they can somehow overwhelm them.

In a room full of pet ant colonies they are by far the greatest threat to all other ants around them.


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