9 replies to this topic

[futurebird]

I'm most pleased with my antkeeping abilities when I can induce natural behavior. To me, that's ants living in their formicarium and foraging in their outworld. When colonies grow too large, or conditions aren't ideal colonies end up "hanging out" in the outworld, kind of like they live in a nest where the outworld is just a big living room with food on the floor. Not ideal. 

 

I've discovered that what keeps ants seeing  the outworld as a distinct space varies by species. But some things are a little universal. Cleaning the outworld helps since I think that makes it less familiar. In theory there would be other ants, and creatures passing by, it's not a safe place to just fall asleep. It's not a place for brood. Sufficient nest space is important, but so is having nest space that meet the species particular needs. Another key factor is light. 

 

Camponotus pennsylvanicus (and probably other large wood-dwelling carpenter species from temperate zones) The biggest thing I've learned about these ants is they are sensitive to light and do not need a moist nest at all. Maybe for early founding, but they thrive in wood without any moisture. But keep their nest uncovered and they will find a shadowy spot in the outworld instead. Larger colonies need to have multiple nest locations and probably multiple outworlds. Cork bark is a great way to create a nice hiding location for ants that like to stay in the outworld so they aren't just standing around. Multiple outworlds give you more options for cleaning. I rinse their sand from time to time. And change hardscape. I want to try some moss with them but I'm nervous about them trying to nest in it... thoughts? These ants like a little heat, but they also NEED to be cold for part of the winter and there should be some months when they have no brood and do little but sleep. I'm thrilled with how their outworld has come along. 

 

 

Dorymyrmex bureni These tiny little ants are also sensitive to light... but in the opposite way as the carpenters. They like to be out when the lights are on and become more active when it's warm and sunshiny. They are not as picky about their nest being dark and it's shocking how tiny their nest is for the size of the colony. A big outworld will allow you to watch them make trails and do recruiting.  I'm testing to see if they will use a second nest but I think they like to keep everyone in one place and the brood in one big pile. I would like to give them changes to do more digging and sand sculpting. Has anyone had any luck with them in a "glass sandwich" nest? They need to have a hydrated nest since they are small and can dry out. These ants love heat.  Their outworld looks great. 

 

 

Camponotus discolor (smaller more warm weather carpenters) I'm having some trouble with these ants. They don't seem to like any nest. They have filled a wood nest and a cork nest and show no real preference. I get the sense they like it a little more damp. But they are packed into the wooden nest, but also linger over their two outworlds. I have discovered they are heat fiends so maybe I can use that to get them inside more. Does anyone have a good looking tidy outworld with this species? My outworld is a mess. I don't think they like sand or rocks and if I put cork they don't use it as a hide they just loiter. 

[rptraut]

Hello futurebird;

 

This is a great topic.  These are observations from my Camponotus pennsylvanicus  colonies.  As an experiment I didn't hydrate one colony's nest for the entire season, and they survived quite nicely.   Mine actually avoid the water tower.   Drinking water is really all they need.  In your opening you refer to natural behaviour and yet it sounds like you want an outworld where it's clean and neat and everybody goes home to bed at night.   That isn't how it is in the natural world. 

 

What's so wrong with ants nesting in moss?   If they want to nest there, there's a reason- let them be.   In nature, I've seen Camponotus trails under moss growing on rocks.   Those trails go great distances, and you would never know.   I have moss in my outworlds in an oasis that I water and try to keep as a wet hole.  Ants hang out there, under the moss, doing who knows what but they're the first ones out when the food shows up.   

 

If ants want to have satellite nests, give them something so they can make a really good job of it.   Mine love pieces of old carpenter ant nests that I put at the entrances to tubing going between outworlds.  They treat it like a guard house, not a nest.  They treat those entrances and hose as if it's all part of their nest and needs to be defended.   I also believe that what some people call "busy" is more natural than the desertscapes most outworlds look like.  Look where ants live outside, it's not all neat and tidy.  Give your ants a place to put their garbage.   I just have a small tupperware type container attached to the main nest and ants put their trash and dead ants in it.   Better yet, feed them more meat products that produce no garbage at all.  This makes keeping a big colony much easier. 

 

It seems to me that as a colony gets bigger, they need more activity and things to do.   For ants, this is often going from one place to another in nature, so my outworlds are connected by coils of tubing where the ants have to go five feet from one outworld to another, you get the idea.    Below are photos of the outworld for my large colony, very busy, and the ants just love it.  They hang out in pieces of wood and moss and leaves, and it doesn't bother me one bit.   

 

 

 

This outworld is divided in half.  The smaller section on the right is connected directly to the nest through the skull.  They have to travel through about five feet of tubing to get from the right side of the outworld to the left side where they're fed on the big fossil.  I also feed them on the right side.  At the bottom left you can see the oasis, sponge and moss that I try to keep moist.  Their wet hole on the right side is under the test tube with water in it.  You can see old nest pieces where ants guard entrances and some are there just for ants to hang out in.   I use heavy mineral oil and baby powder for containment.

 

 

 

 

This photo just shows the attachment of hoses and the connections to various parts of the outworlds and the feeding station for sugar water at the rear left which requires a guard house as well.

 

 

 

 

This shows the attachment to the nest and the garbage dump attached it.   The coiled tubing goes from the right side of the outworld to the left side.

 

 

 

 

 

The overall layout of the nest and outworlds on their shelf in my greenhouse.

 

My attitude is - if an ant can't hide in the outworld, something's wrong - they do that in nature.

RPT

 

 

[Mushu]

Indeed watching their foraging behavior is very interesting.  That's why I always prefer large outworlds. I used to have a 10 gallon outworld for my harvester ant colony but when it grew to about 1k ants  it got a bit crowded. Besides a clean outworld I think temperature influences their foraging behavior. I actually wrap the heating wire around my outworld to simulate desert heat on the edges. I've seen my Myrmecocystus placodops forage in the dark as long as it's ideal temperature or perhaps they are just tidying up the nest. In the wild it's observed diurnal species may tidy up the nest at night.

 

My buddy's Myrmecocystus mexicanus foragers just hang out at the top of the mini hearth outworld chilling and it's a sad sight indeed. I too also like to see them travel and forage for food. The coiled vinyl tubing as long tunnels is a cool idea. I plan to make a 20 gallon outworld, however I've been thinking of how to put mini cactus for a desert biome without the honeypots  trying to nest in a 3.5 inch deep/wide pots I plan to keep them in. I've also thought about a way to put aphids for them to milk. 

 

My current Myrmecocystus placodops colony of 15( I lost some to escapees) with quartz sand outworld moves sand around, digs a bit, brings sand in for the cocoons or to absorb water when I overfill the water tower by a bit, forages a bit and goes back in to sleep,   in a 9" W x 4.125" D x 4.375" outworld connected to a mini hearth. It's painful for me to see them stuck in those small outworlds although admittingly they are compact and clean looking, those mini hearths. I also use the mini hearth outworld in addition to the custom outworld. They actually covered up half of the tunnel to the larger outworld with sand.  It's funny to see they have one guard watchman for each entrance and run around when they feel an intruder(me), or perhaps they are just happy and recognize me as food bringer. 

Edited by Mushu, February 14 2024 - 2:46 AM.

[Full_Frontal_Yeti]

In short, all about perspective. The POV of the ant is what to try and "see" for how to best create the illusion of outside for them. And ants use "smell" to get a large part of their world POV.

 

The difference in behavior between a lid closed outworld vs. a no lid outworld was instantly obvious. I'll always be wanting to keep an open outworld now, so i might just avoid good climbers/escape artists ants. A closed space retains its odors, while outside is an ever shifting open air of smells

 

With my pogonomyrmex occidentalis

 

I have noticed that as soon as i had two open lid outworlds hooked up. They no longer take the trash as far away from the nest exit as possible, but only as far as they feel it needs to go. Slackers after my own heart.

When it was all "inside" to them, they moved the trash to the farthest corner of space away from them they could find.
And then when i had one open lid outworld at the farthest end of the setup, the trash for sure went there, into the farthest corner of "outside."

But once i had all the outworlds open air with no lids on any. Now they only take the trash as far as the first open air outworld's farthest corner. They no longer take trash to the farther away pile in the last outworld.
And then in true OCD fashion, they moved the trash that was in the farther away pile of the 2rd outworld, into the closer pile of the 1st outworld.
Apparently there can be only one, trash pile.

 

 

I say open lid outworlds first, but only because more space is not something we al have to give. If you can open those lids and leave them off.

BUT if you got the space, then lots and lots of outworld. A ratio of nest/outworld space along the lines of 1:4 or better.

Typical smaller setups are much closer to 1:1, like a tarheel ants fortress or fallen fortress. They each have a nest and outworld of 4x4, and ants do fine in this. But if you can hook up more outworld to get closer to something like 4 inches of nest and 16 inches of outworld, it can help open up their more natural foraging and outside behaviors to observe.

While you can give too much nest relative to colony size, and run into some problems from it. It is impossible to give them too much outworld space, so if you got it to give, feel free to give it freely.

 

Consider it as, otuworld space =  statistical sampling.

The larger it is, the closer it approaches being actual reality.

 

My current wish for space fantasy is getting to use a 45" diameter kiddie pool as an outworld for a large colony (my pogonomyrmex occidentalis in 3-4 years)

I figure a 1/16" fine dry sand floor, rock and wood decorations, with a fluon barrier would work great. So big to allow really long forage trails to watch.

they cost so little, $13 USD.

https://www.homedepo...00130/317025815

[rptraut]

Hello Everyone;

 

One of my ultimate ant keeping goals is to have a colony that's able to forage outdoors while they live in an indoor formicarium.   I know this is fraught with problems which I haven't been able to completely work out, but the Greenhouse colony pictured in my previous post did achieve some outdoor foraging because of a series of circumstances.   This colony took a major hit last winter and lost more than half of their workers.   The first generation of workers in spring were exceptionally small.   In the outworld pictured in those photos, at the top where the divider and the side meet, there is a small seam that a normal sized Camponotus worker can't climb, they just can't climb with their legs that close together. 

 

But those miniature workers, with enough determination, would work away at the barrier and climb their way out.   Initially I tried to catch them and return them to the nest, until I realized they were foraging outside and returning by the same route back to the nest.   Their social stomachs looked full.   I wish I could tell you I saw them carrying huge loads of bird droppings and buckets of pine sap, but I saw them bring back nothing significant.   That didn't really matter to me, I just got a kick out of watching them strike off over the bridge to the outside world!

 

 

 

 

The lid on the Greenhouse colony is well ventilated, but dark.    I find that when it's removed, more ants try climbing the wall or testing the barrier than when the lid is on.   Maybe tempted by all that open sky.   Colonies with clear outworld lids don't seem to me to show any difference with the lid off.

RPT

 

 

 

 

 

[futurebird]

Basically you are talking about keeping ants like bees. The queen can't get out of the nest but the workers can. This would be enough to keep them from running off. 

 

I think the bigger challenge might be other ants attacking the nest. Though this might be a bigger issue in a tropical climate. 

[rptraut]

Hello futurebird;

 

I've contemplated using screen that only workers from something like a Tetramorium colony could pass through, keeping the larger queen in the main nest.   But I can see them carrying eggs or small larvae outside to somewhere warmer or safer or whatever.   I haven't been able to come up with something satisfactory like that, but my Camponotus example makes me wonder if there's another way, something only the smallest ants can climb, or only the biggest, .......  Any ideas?

 

The first year I had the colony in the greenhouse they were "attacked" by wild ants.   There was formic acid in the air that day, my friends, and I had to do some pretty quick work with a fly swatter to repel the invaders.   I eventually had to get rid of two wild colonies that were living in the window molding and rafters of the greenhouse.  Since then, there's been no problems, but I am ever vigilant. 

RPT 

[Mushu]

In short, all about perspective. The POV of the ant is what to try and "see" for how to best create the illusion of outside for them. And ants use "smell" to get a large part of their world POV.

 

The difference in behavior between a lid closed outworld vs. a no lid outworld was instantly obvious. I'll always be wanting to keep an open outworld now, so i might just avoid good climbers/escape artists ants. A closed space retains its odors, while outside is an ever shifting open air of smells

 

With my pogonomyrmex occidentalis

 

I have noticed that as soon as i had two open lid outworlds hooked up. They no longer take the trash as far away from the nest exit as possible, but only as far as they feel it needs to go. Slackers after my own heart.

When it was all "inside" to them, they moved the trash to the farthest corner of space away from them they could find.
And then when i had one open lid outworld at the farthest end of the setup, the trash for sure went there, into the farthest corner of "outside."

But once i had all the outworlds open air with no lids on any. Now they only take the trash as far as the first open air outworld's farthest corner. They no longer take trash to the farther away pile in the last outworld.
And then in true OCD fashion, they moved the trash that was in the farther away pile of the 2rd outworld, into the closer pile of the 1st outworld.
Apparently there can be only one, trash pile.

 

 

I say open lid outworlds first, but only because more space is not something we al have to give. If you can open those lids and leave them off.

BUT if you got the space, then lots and lots of outworld. A ratio of nest/outworld space along the lines of 1:4 or better.

Typical smaller setups are much closer to 1:1, like a tarheel ants fortress or fallen fortress. They each have a nest and outworld of 4x4, and ants do fine in this. But if you can hook up more outworld to get closer to something like 4 inches of nest and 16 inches of outworld, it can help open up their more natural foraging and outside behaviors to observe.

While you can give too much nest relative to colony size, and run into some problems from it. It is impossible to give them too much outworld space, so if you got it to give, feel free to give it freely.

 

Consider it as, otuworld space =  statistical sampling.

The larger it is, the closer it approaches being actual reality.

 

My current wish for space fantasy is getting to use a 45" diameter kiddie pool as an outworld for a large colony (my pogonomyrmex occidentalis in 3-4 years)

I figure a 1/16" fine dry sand floor, rock and wood decorations, with a fluon barrier would work great. So big to allow really long forage trails to watch.

they cost so little, $13 USD.

https://www.homedepo...00130/317025815

 

Agree on the open outworld. For my old harvester colony I didn't have to worry and had it open also. I also had a thin layer of sand. I do think we can simulate a open outworld for species that climb with enough ventilation holes. I actually wished the mini hearth has 2 ventilation holes. 

 

Before I moved, I did thought of using a 60 gallon tank as a outworld. If I had the room I definitely would. I'm more of a less colonies with larger outworld kind of ant keeper. 

Edited by Mushu, February 14 2024 - 2:42 AM.

[Mushu]

Basically you are talking about keeping ants like bees. The queen can't get out of the nest but the workers can. This would be enough to keep them from running off. 

 

I think the bigger challenge might be other ants attacking the nest. Though this might be a bigger issue in a tropical climate. 

I had the same idea as rptraut but indeed I couldn't figure out a way as argentine ants would be a problem.

[Mushu]

back to this topic. I increased the vent on the outworld from 2 to 4 1 inch holes and there was an immediate change. They decided to plug up the outworld hole, possibly because it's a bit colder at the moment so as to keep more heat/moisture in the nest. Will be curious to see how this transitions in the summer months or when they get more workers.

 

 

 

Edited by Mushu, April 6 2024 - 11:18 AM.