44 replies to this topic

[Runner12]

I currently have two C. chromaoides queens, three C. americanum queens, and one C. castaneus queen, all with varying numbers of workers caught this past May.

 

I've tried many times in the past to raise these three species, but I've never had success.  The queens will usually raise the first workers fine, but after the first or second batch is when things seem to always go wrong.

 

They always seem to follow the same pattern.  The small colonies will eat enthusiastically at first, insects, fruit, sugar water, and the queen will lay more eggs, but on the second or third round of brood, the larvae will become arrested in growth at a very early stage and stay that way.  Pupae will die before eclosing, and workers will start refusing to eat no matter what I offer them and slowly die off until only the queen is left with her larvae which refuse to grow.  Eventually she goes too.  I've never had the population rise over 15 or so before this happens after a few months.

 

I'm starting to see this pattern developing yet again in this batch of queens.  The C. castaneus queen has stopped laying and has a large number of non-growing larvae and a few workers who spend all their time in the nest.  One of the C. chromaiodes colonies is starting to show signs of this too.  The other is still going strong, but they're pretty near the magic number of 15-20.  Not really any deaths yet, but I'm starting to see signs of the "slowdown" in all colonies.  None are eating as well as they used to.

 

Currently they're in test tube nests in tupperware outworlds with a layer of sand in the bottom, and a tube of honey/sugar water in each.  No mold in any nests.  I offer them insects, fruit, and sugar water, but they're all losing interest in foods they used to love.  Why does this keep happening?  I haven't hit a point where they need to be hibernated yet.  Temp stays in the low 80s/high 70s, plenty of humidity in the boxes.

 

 

[kellakk]

I've never kept Camponotus that long, but that sounds like the signs I've read of colonies that need to be hibernated.

[Runner12]

I've read the same thing, but I just caught them this past May as new queens, and it definitely isn't cold enough for them to hibernate here, temps are still in the 90s outside

[Mdrogun]

Have you tried multiple types of setups? Sometimes ants just don't do well in a certain setup.

[LC3]

Hibernation doesn't necessarily need to correspond with what goes on outside captive colonies and wild colonies vary quite a bit, hibernation is generally beneficial for ants and even just an extra month of it can keep the colony up and going. Camponotus are a slow growing species and these signs usually indicate the period before hibernation as larvae will halt growth and pupate next spring because pupae can't survive the cold.

Edited by LC3, August 31 2015 - 4:31 PM.

[Runner12]

I'm wondering if they might key off day length instead of temperature to tell them when winter is coming in which case I'm wondering if they might need to be in a place where they can see natural light.  Although we still have at least a good two months of warmer weather here, should be plenty of time for the larvae to grow.  One of the C. americanus colonies has a batch of larvae that have suddenly started developing, but the others are still staying stuck at the same stage pretty much, not much bigger than eggs. 

 

The C. castaneus colony is especially frustrating since I really like them, but they're stuck at 6 workers and a pile of small larvae, no eggs from the queen in weeks.  My C. chromaiodes colony that was doing the best out of all of them suddenly had a worker die off and I think the queen is dying too now.  Not sure what happened.  Moved them out of the enclosure they were in though.  It looks like it could be a disease, the workers act sluggish and then circle before dying.

 

I've tried all of them in dirt setups, but they don't seem to have any interest in tunnelling, they just pick a corner and sit there, even though they're supposed to be soil dwellers.  I keep them in a room that stays pretty much the same as the temp outside, so I figure when it gets cold enough for them to hibernate, they'll just do it naturally on their own.

Edited by Runner12, August 31 2015 - 7:16 PM.

[Gregory2455]

It seems North American Camponotus do HORRIBLY in any glass or plastic setup with no extra substrate.

[Runner12]

Hmm ok, well the setup I have for them now is test tubes in tupper ware boxes with about two inches of damp sand in the bottom.  Some of them have taken bits of the sand into the test tubes with them, some haven't,I ended up ditching the dirt setups because of their refusal to dig which was a little mystifying since castaneus and americanus are both soil dwelling species

[dspdrew]

The same exact thing happens to me most of the time, and I have all the same questions. I've tried all sorts of different hibernation times, and it seems to have no affect on it.

 

This year however, I do have a colony of Camponotus fragilis I started from a single queen last year that is getting quite large and doing really well.

[Gregory2455]

that's cause C.fragilis are desert ants and your apartment is like always desert temps.

[Crystals]

It sounds like a hibernation/dormancy pattern.

But I am used to northern Camponotus who need a good cold period every year.

 

I am not sure how the southern ones hibernate; or what humidity, or temperatures they need. 

 

I doubt it is a light cycle, since most ants will remain underground in the nest.

[Runner12]

Anything in particular you recall doing differently with your successful colony?

 

I recently caught a wild C. chromaiodes colony with about 30 workers when I accidentally broke their nest open when I kicked a log in the yard and they all fell out.  I'm interested to see if this colony is going to fair better than the ones I've raised from queens.  It may be with these species that you need a young colony that's already somewhat established.

 

Interestingly, their brood seemed to have the same pattern as my captive colonies, a few bunches of very early instar larvae, and two developing larvae that were much bigger than the rest.  Since moving them into a formicarium they haven't done much except mass together in a small chamber they dug.  I only took materials from the area I found the nest, going to see if this makes any sort of difference.

[Mdrogun]

It seems North American Camponotus do HORRIBLY in any glass or plastic setup with no extra substrate.

That's not true here in the east. I've only had a Camponotus colony die from my own stupidity. My Camponotus pennsylvanicus. colony is almost 2 years old has a good amount of brood and has about 100-150 workers. I keep them in a large Omni nest.

 

 

for Runner12: if your Camoponotus workers are not living two years and are hibernating something might be killing them. I have only ever had my nanitic workers die in my big colony.

[Runner12]

So far they're all nanitics with a few exceptions.  Only the one C. chromaoides colony has had die offs, rest seem to be stuck in a holding pattern.  Any particular advice you can offer?

[dspdrew]

Anything in particular you recall doing differently with your successful colony?

 

If you're asking me, No.

 

I have a Camponotus semitestaceus colony I collected from the wild, and they are doing the same thing you describe. The colony never seems to grow much at all.

[Gregory2455]

Sorry, yeah eastern Camponotus are definitely hardier than the ones west of the Rocky Mountains. It would be a rather poor idea to put any Camponotus species around here into a nest like an omni nest or such.

[JoshuaGF]

If runner12 and dspdrew are having the same problems it is unlikely that it is a hibernation period. Dspdrew stated he has tried all sorts of hibernation times. It appears that there may be something they are getting in the wild that they are not getting in captivity. What they lack could be anything including microorganisms which have symbiotic relationships with all species including humans (ex. humans do not produce vitamin K "microorganisms inside our body produce it"). Testing this hypothesis would take a long time because you would have to change each variable one at a time and there is just to many variables to sort through for just a couple of people. Watch wild species for a long time and make observations. Write down what you see and leave nothing out. Chances are you will be able to narrow down the possibilities.

[dspdrew]

I'll probably start looking into it a bit more if all the Camponotus queens I found this year end up this way. I have to say, so far a lot of them seem to be doing fairly well, but it's really hard to say for sure until about nine months go by.

[Mdrogun]

The weird thing is, is that you have eastern camponotus species. C. chromaoides and C. castaneus are both ants that are out east. Is there a certain sugar or nectar that the ants could be getting? Camponotus have special stomachs that allow them to get more nutrients from carbohydrates than other ants(I'm not 100% sure this is true). There might be a certain type of carbohydrate that in the wild provides them with a lot of their needed nutrition.

Edited by Mdrogun, September 2 2015 - 12:37 PM.

[Runner12]

Not sure I follow, why is that weird?

They were all found in dense woodland, nothing anywhere nearby they could possibly be getting nectar or anything from unless it's something that's not flowering somehow.  I've kept them fed on insects and sugar water so far but I've been trying to switch them to formula blue