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Ant Talk at vet conference- Input and pictures required


80 replies to this topic

#41 Offline Ernteameise - Posted August 7 2023 - 11:52 PM

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Perhaps, as your first patient, you can help me diagnose and treat a problem I am having with some of my colonies.  This malady has affected various ant colonies, Lasius, Tapinoma and especially my Myrmica colonies.  They seem to be strong and healthy and then suddenly there is a massive die off of workers, leaving mainly the nest workers and brood alive.  The remaining workers still seem to be tending the brood, but there is little foraging activity and feeding activity is slow.  I haven't had a colony grow out of this yet, this has all happened over the last two weeks to five of my colonies.  Does this sound like something you have ever heard of before and how can I treat and prevent it?

Well, yes, I am a vet, but I will be blatantly honest-

short of diagnosing liver fluke (Dicroceolium) in a nature formicarium over at my German facebook group (he had naturally caught snails in there) I do not think I can help you (yet).

There is NO veterinary literature on ant diseases.

I am actually a pioneer, pushing the frontier, and everything I learned I basically learned off the people on this forum. In the past 3 months.

 

However.

I am working at a veterinary diagnostics lab.

A place where vets send their samples and we test for viruses and bacteria.

I already got the (few) scientific papers on viruses in ants and I already am thinking about creating a test for sick ant colonies.

They appear to have several of the bee viruses, and these "bee" viruses are actually not host specific, but hymenoptera viruses in general.

As far as I know, these viruses cannot kill a colony by itself, but if the colony is stressed or has bad nutrition and husbandry, the colonies can wither and die.

A good sign for an infectious agent would be if there are several colonies at one keeper are sick- without disinfecting pincers and feed dishes between touching different formicariums, viruses will be spread all over the place. So sad news- there is a chance you have caught a virus.

 

As with most viruses (and as we have seen with COVID), there is NO treatment for viruses.

Viruses are not technically alive, so antibiotics ("killing live") will not work.

And yes, there has been the first vaccination developed for bees (!!!) so it is possible, but it will never happen with ants. No economical drive.

 

Anyways, this is another point I will be making at my talk-

Will there be any interest in the veterinary profession for me to provide a virus test for ants (obviously only expensive colonies) at our lab?

PCR is expensive, so this will be around 90 Euro for several of the most common viruses.

Are people even willing to pay this kind of money?

It will be no problem whatsoever for me to validate and get these tests running at the lab, but my boss will NOT allow this if nobody buys this test from us. We are not a charity after all. We are a commercial lab.


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#42 Online rptraut - Posted August 8 2023 - 11:18 PM

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Thank you for the information.  I knew the colonies were infected with something, but I was thinking maybe bacteria or fungus, virus didn't even cross my mind.  Obviously, whatever it is, it's detrimental to the health of the colony and is highly contagious.  With this in mind, I quarantined the affected colonies as soon as I realized there was a problem.  I have been washing and disinfecting my utensils before each feeding session and feeding the diseased colonies last.  My sanitation practices are good because I had a problem with mites in the past and only use feeding trays once and then wash and disinfect them before reuse.  I now disinfect my utensils between feeding each colony with hand sanitizer, from Covid days.  

 

A test for viruses affecting ants will probably never be economically viable as ants are not that valuable and are kept by very few people.  At this stage, even just a summary of common disease and pest problems, prevention, symptoms and cures or treatment would be useful.  A discussion about sanitation practices would also be helpful.  

 

At this point I have a few more questions.  Do ants have an immune system; can they develop immunity to this infection or should I euthanize the affected colonies?   

RPT 


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My father always said I had ants in my pants.

#43 Offline Ernteameise - Posted August 9 2023 - 11:01 AM

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Thank you for the information.  I knew the colonies were infected with something, but I was thinking maybe bacteria or fungus, virus didn't even cross my mind.  Obviously, whatever it is, it's detrimental to the health of the colony and is highly contagious.  With this in mind, I quarantined the affected colonies as soon as I realized there was a problem.  I have been washing and disinfecting my utensils before each feeding session and feeding the diseased colonies last.  My sanitation practices are good because I had a problem with mites in the past and only use feeding trays once and then wash and disinfect them before reuse.  I now disinfect my utensils between feeding each colony with hand sanitizer, from Covid days.  

 

A test for viruses affecting ants will probably never be economically viable as ants are not that valuable and are kept by very few people.  At this stage, even just a summary of common disease and pest problems, prevention, symptoms and cures or treatment would be useful.  A discussion about sanitation practices would also be helpful.  

 

At this point I have a few more questions.  Do ants have an immune system; can they develop immunity to this infection or should I euthanize the affected colonies?   

RPT 

This is basically all you can do against infections in general (and viruses especially):

Hygiene, hygiene, and have I mentioned hygiene?

Best separate utensils for each colony, and if not possible, disinfect in between using them in different colonies.

In-out system.

Good sanitation.

Regular cleaning.

Do not let waste pile up.

Keep temperatures and humidity at optimum.

Feed the best quality foods.

 

Good luck!

 

Well, testing goes hand in hand with any diagnosis. And at our lab, we offer other tests for "random" pet species (amphibians, reptile species) and these tests are also not ordered very often. I have to hear what the other vets say and if it is in any way viable, I will do this.

 

I had to laugh.

"At this stage, even just a summary of common disease and pest problems, prevention, symptoms and cures or treatment would be useful.  A discussion about sanitation practices would also be helpful. "

 

Well, YOU are the pioneer RIGHT NOW. YOU have sick colonies. YOU are now doing observations. YOU are needed to write down symptoms and any step YOU take.

Because, as I said, there is NO literature.

I am completely new to this, and I have no experience.

No vet has ever looked into this to my knowledge.

So I will be learning from YOU.

Take pictures.

Make plenty of notes.

If you take certain hygiene steps, and if there is any improvements, I rely on you to let me know.

I think you get the point....

 

It is not that simple. Vets are relying on ant keepers to actually teach them the ropes. As I am doing right now. So if you are willing to help out, we can maybe start a write-up on this (off into the rabbit hole.....).

But right now, common diseases are unknown. It is unknown how often certain bacteria, fungi, parasites and viruses affect pet ant colonies. It is unknown which pathogens these even are. With thousands of ant species, we are probably talking about hundreds of different viruses alone. Maybe these will never be discovered.

There are a few paper on viruses, but those are research papers, not a veterinary ones.

Since we do not know the pathogens, it is very hard to tell epidemiology and pathogenisis.

Symptoms have to be collected by the ant keepers who observe them and report them to the veterinary profession.

Treatment and prevention will have to be worked out from there.

Otherwise, any recommendations will be very general, like the ones I give above "clean your utensils and avoid feeding contaminated live foods".

 

This whole premise is daunting.

This will have to start at step one.

But at the same time, it is exiting.

This is an opportunity to do something completely new and fresh and stepping onto unexplored new lands.

As for the question with the immune system.

Like many invertebrates, insects only have an innate immune system, they lack the adaptive immune system which vertebrates have.

So they cannot form specific antibodies to fight specific new pathogens.

They rely on cytokines and phagocytic cells which target unspecific "foreign" pathogens.

So instead of the precision sniper rifle which the vertebrates are equipped with (B- and T- Lymphocytes and antibodies), insects basically shoot a broadside of unspecific grapeshot.

However, ants have a certain "secret weapon" which is the metapleural gland- this gland is one of the unique defining features of ants, and it produces antibiotics against bacteria and fungi.

But viruses?

Colonies infected with viruses might as well be doomed.

Ants also have a natural behaviour in that ants that are sick will leave the colony and stay away from their sisters. They basically isolate themselves. Which makes a lot of sense. See COVID.

 

Oh, and as for the first vaccine ever developed for insects (in this case, the honeybees) see this article:

https://www.smithson...here-180981400/

As you can see this vaccine does not trigger a adaptive immune reaction (no specific lymphocytes and antibodies) but relies on triggering the innate immune system of the larvae.

 

So for your question with euthanizing the colonies:

If you have the time, observe them and make notes on the symptoms and how many die how often and so on.

Pictures would be great, too.

This will be invaluable.

But of course this will take time and would be a little science project for a student at university all in itself, so do not feel obliged.

I studied diseases for my PhD (Avian Malaria in native New Zealand passerine birds) so I know it is A LOT of work.

If you see that the colonies are struggling and not thriving and numbers plummeting, you might have no other option than euthanasia.

It is just-

if nobody documents these issues and die-offs, how the heck should a lone vet like me, sitting at the yonder butt end of rural Germany, ever find out about it?


Edited by Ernteameise, August 9 2023 - 11:12 AM.

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#44 Online rptraut - Posted August 10 2023 - 12:37 AM

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Thanks for your reply and information.  I do keep notes on my colonies, and I'll continue to monitor them until they improve or die off completely.  I'll freeze some samples of dead ants for future reference and take photos.   

 

I thank Serafine for making a great start on a "Health Care Sheet for Ant Colonies" and I look forward to reading more of this type of information, because as you've said, it isn't available anywhere else.    

 

Ant health issues

Mites
- Grain mites
- Trash-eating mites (aka normal standard mites)
- Parasitic mites
-- Blood-sucking mites (treatment options like predatory hypoaspis mites, anti-mite meds for bees, formic acid fogging)
-- Intermediate stages (dormant/transport forms on ants)
-- Food-stealing mites (the big ones that sit on ants and can use their front limbs to beg for food)

Mold/Fungus
- Bacterial mold
- Fungal mold
-- Yellow “formiculture” fungus (the ones that is known to wipe out colonies)
- Parasitic leafcutter fungus (a fungus that infests leafcutter fungus)
- Cordiceps (the ant zombie fungus)

Harmless/useful guests
- Isopods
- Springtails
- Booklice/Dustlice

Bacterial infections
- Colored gasters in Temnothorax
-- Issues with antibiotics (ant symbiotic gut bacteria)

Parasites
- Phorid flies
- Nest parasites (Butterfly/Beetle larvae that eat brood)
- Parasitic flies that infect queens during their flights (abandon all hope for treatment here)

Parasites that use ants as part of their lifecycle
- Tapeworms/Roundworms in cows

Care issues
- Disturbance (light, vibrations)
- Lack of hibernation (stunted growth, low activity)
- Pre-hibernation issues when heating temperate Camponotus

Setup issues
- Toxic substrate (playground/colored/bird sand)
Diatomaceous earth (kills ants)

- Dry nest (crippled new workers)
- Lack of humidity (tropical rainforest ants)
- Deep nest issues with clumsy ants (like Messor)
- U-turn issues (with sun-navigating ants like Messor)
- Lack of heat (meditarranean/(sub)tropical ants)
- Open water areas (with ants like Messor)

Food-related issues
- Food poisoning (pesticides in honey/fruit, treated seeds like grass, caffein)
- Too much ammonia? (shaking ant syndrome, protein-loaded roaches)
- Bad diet/nutritional deficit (only mealworms, milk)
- Food going bad in the setup (S. fugax/ants that bury food, fermenting sugar water/honey)

Other external issues
- Area spraying of pesticides
- Plug-in anti-mosquito devices

Ants
- Feral ant raids (Pharao ants, Fire ants, Black Crazy ants, Bigheaded ants)
-- secure home & setup
- Pet ants breaking out and eating other pet colonies (Lasius niger, Fire ants)
-- secure setups BOTH ways (in and out)

Random anecdote
- Chinese “medical ants” Ponzi scheme scandal that led to a death sentence for one of the people who came up with it (makes for a bit of a spectacle, as a closing point on the lecture)

 


 

I think our forum members have a lot of knowledge and experience that could go a long way to fleshing out a Health Care Sheet.  I would appreciate any effort towards this end.  Present and future ant keepers will certainly benefit from anything we do to better inform about the types of disease and pest problems that can affect ants, and how to prevent and treat them.

RPT


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My father always said I had ants in my pants.

#45 Offline Serafine - Posted October 28 2023 - 3:10 PM

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It's done.

https://www.formicul...ssues/?p=233757


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We should respect all forms of consciousness. The body is just a vessel, a mere hull.

Welcome to Lazy Tube - My Camponotus Journal


#46 Offline Ernteameise - Posted October 30 2023 - 2:09 AM

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Great job!!!!

 

Well, my talk will be this Saturday.

Will travel to the UK the day after tomorrow.

Exciting!!!

Wish me all good luck.

I will first give a general talk about antkeeping- if it is well received, common problems and health will be next!


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#47 Offline Serafine - Posted October 30 2023 - 3:49 AM

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I wish you the best!

Good luck and fair seas, and avoid the ecological dead zones (aka british rivers).


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We should respect all forms of consciousness. The body is just a vessel, a mere hull.

Welcome to Lazy Tube - My Camponotus Journal


#48 Offline ConcordAntman - Posted October 30 2023 - 7:34 AM

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Ernteameise, may you have clarity of mind and eloquence of tongue. You’ve got an international forum of myrmecologists and friends all wishing you great success with your presentation this weekend!


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#49 Offline Ernteameise - Posted October 30 2023 - 11:49 AM

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Thank you both!

This means a lot.


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#50 Offline ANTdrew - Posted October 30 2023 - 6:28 PM

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Godspeed to you!
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"The ants are a people not strong, yet they prepare their meat in the summer." Prov. 30:25
Keep ordinary ants in extraordinary ways.

#51 Offline 100lols - Posted October 31 2023 - 11:54 PM

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History in the making :)
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#52 Offline Ernteameise - Posted November 6 2023 - 8:53 AM

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Right.

I am back in Germany!

And what can I say....

I am totally chuffed.

 

Me helping out my UK colleague went very well, we both get along very well.

We got lots of new contacts, represented our company and I was told I gave one of the best lectures of the whole conference.

Yes!

My lecture on Ant Keeping was well received and I was even asked if I could go into more detail next year. 

I had tons of people asking be about it (my UK colleague called them "your new fanclub"), there was MASSIVE interest in the attending vets- the lecture room was packed! I had hoped for maybe 5-10 people attending (there were several lecture streams) but no! People were actually queuing in and sitting on the floor. I had not expected THAT amount of interest.

I of course also shamelessly plugged this forum into my talk!

 

In any case, Invertebrate Medicine was VERY popular during this conference and learning all this exciting stuff about completely "alien" creatures was VERY exciting.

 

I am very happy to report that the interest in the exotics vets in invertebrates is growing. I even spoke to two vets who have the hobby of breeding different colour strains of Isopods. They showed me tons of pictures.

Everybody was very enthusiastic about it.

This is very good news.

I am now actually thinking about joining the veterinary invertebrate society (it just has been founded!), what a great opportunity to learn.

 

I am also thinking about the potential follow up talk, going more into details about problems and medical issues and so on. Will to have a think about that.

But if that will happen, it will happen next year, and there is still a lot of planning and work stuff and politics to dig through before the sequel is about to happen....

and there still is the event in Germany, where I give the same talk, just in German language.

Anyways, I am still very exited.

 

And so you know I do not make this up, some pictures my colleague took with her mobile phone:

 

Ant-talk1.jpg

 

Ant-Talk2.jpg

 

Ant-Talk3.jpg

 

Ant-Talk5.jpg

 

Ant-Talk6.jpg


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#53 Offline ANTdrew - Posted November 6 2023 - 1:57 PM

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That’s amazing! You’ve done a great thing for our little hobby!
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"The ants are a people not strong, yet they prepare their meat in the summer." Prov. 30:25
Keep ordinary ants in extraordinary ways.

#54 Offline ConcordAntman - Posted November 6 2023 - 5:32 PM

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Many congratulations, we’re really happy for your success! Kudos to you!!


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#55 Online rptraut - Posted November 6 2023 - 7:20 PM

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Hello Ernteameise;
Congratulations on a successful mission accomplished. Awareness is often the first step towards improvement and you’ve made a very important group aware of the state of ant keeping today. That can only be beneficial. Thank you
RPT
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#56 Offline dspdrew - Posted November 6 2023 - 10:51 PM

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Very nice. Glad it turned out well.


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#57 Offline ANTdrew - Posted November 7 2023 - 3:36 AM

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What intrigued your audience the most, and do you think you made any converts?
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"The ants are a people not strong, yet they prepare their meat in the summer." Prov. 30:25
Keep ordinary ants in extraordinary ways.

#58 Offline Ernteameise - Posted November 7 2023 - 10:03 AM

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What intrigued your audience the most, and do you think you made any converts?

Well, I think it was the picture of the ant toilet I posted.

There were already many converts in the audience who keep other inverts.

But most people were intrigued hearing that ants are so clean and organized and then I told them about the latest research that ants even have nurses in war, who do triage and heal (with the antibiotics from their metapleural glands) and amputate in ants that can be saved and recycle the ants that cannot be saved. I told them about the leaf-cutter cities, with air conditioned rooms, rubbish disposal force and worker castes for any duty that needs to be done.

And then I showed the picture of my ant toilet. And the fact that my ants indeed are using these. Minds totally blown.

People who were previously NOT partial to ants came up to me (especially one older lady who looks after a small zoo at the side) and said "I usually did kill them whenever I saw them, but now I actually look at them in a different light. They are so small, but they somehow achieve things that do not even really work in human cities."

I think I did a good job showing that not all ants are pests. Yes, there are invasive pests, but many species are not, and they lead interesting, well organized lives.

At the end of the talk, one of the first questions was "How do they sleep?" and I had to re-enact the sleeping behaviour of my girls: either sitting still or lying on their sides.

And- when I give a talk, I am VERY expressive. I cannot stand still. I act out everything.

People told me "I loved the little interpretative dance you did!" about how my harvester ants transport seed back to their stashes.


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#59 Offline Ernteameise - Posted November 7 2023 - 10:06 AM

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Plus, today, when I was back at work and had my 6monthly performance review talk with my superior, I actually got support and appreciation.

This made me very happy.

They were a bit dismissive at the start (I told you that people laughed in my office), but somehow they have now realized that this was actually a massive draw for the company, because lots of people came to our exhibition stall to talk to me and to find out out about our diagnostic laboratory.

So yay.


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#60 Offline 100lols - Posted November 8 2023 - 8:33 AM

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Sounds like you did an amazing job and gave a captivating presentation! Spreading awareness about the hobby, as stated, is critical for growth :)

With other exotic pets and reptiles, a specialized vet is typically needed. Obviously research in the field is essential. You may have inspired some deeper thinking into the finacial possibilities associated with veterinary medicine for the ant keeping hobby.

Thank you again for all your energy and time [mention]Ernteameise [/mention] !!!!
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