31 replies to this topic

[Ernteameise]

I know that in Germany, at least, it is not allowed to take wild colonies from the forest for example.

My very first colony, 30 years ago, was a small colony of Formica polyctena (small wood ant), but I had a permit from the forest warden, the ants were taken by the forest warden and my grandpa (an experienced bee keeper) and I got some advice and support from my local university (which happens to be the University of Würzburg, where Bert Hölldobler was teaching).

Formica polyctena is also polygyne, so me taking some workers and a queen did not cause too much of an issue, and after I finished my science project (about 2 years later), the ants were released back without problems.

I actually would feel very bad taking a colony of Formica fusca from the forest- after all, they are the hosts for our large wood ant Formica rufa for colony founding... and Formica rufa is highly protected and they need any help they can get. So from an ecological perspective, it could also have an impact just taking them away.

I know how tempting it is, the other day, I was in the forest, and I also stumbled across a nest of Formica fusca, and they are stunningly beautiful with their shiny back carapaces. It is tempting.

However, I now own a beautiful colony of Messor barbarus, which are also a striking shiny black, and which you can actually buy as larger colonies on Ebay Kleinanzeigen (do you have this in Austria?).

So there are actually good options to buy a larger colony in central Europe without lots of problems.

It might only a bit more difficult if you want to get a larger colony of a larger body native species- many of the colonies sold online are either exotic or they are Lasius niger/ flavus.

 

Otherwise, I totally agree with both ANTdrew and Miles.

[AntsCali098]

That reminds me, taking workers/brood to use for a host colony or brood boost is perfectly fine in my opinion.

Also, if it is a host species, there is probably a lot in the area where you find a parasitic queen.

I would also like to add that the digging up of colonies is something I never do, only under rocks.

Edited by AntsCali098, May 11 2023 - 10:21 AM.

[AntaholicAnonymous]

@Ernteameise
I bought queens from ant store in Germany before they ship certain species to Austria too but all the ant shops that i know don't have much of a selection currently. I'm especially sad that I can't get manica rubida.

I also have a 2 year old messor barbarus colony that's doing great but they do so well in their terrarium that they won't benefit from an upgrade yet.
I did catch a rufa queen last season and they are very protected in Austria as well so I released her the day after.
I'm building a room dedicated to ant keeping right now and my ambitions in making terrariums is greater than the colonies I have to live in them.
My huge manica rubida colony I loved passed away recently so I'm trying to fill that void somehow.

[Ernteameise]

@Ernteameise
I bought queens from ant store in Germany before they ship certain species to Austria too but all the ant shops that i know don't have much of a selection currently. I'm especially sad that I can't get manica rubida.

I also have a 2 year old messor barbarus colony that's doing great but they do so well in their terrarium that they won't benefit from an upgrade yet.
I did catch a rufa queen last season and they are very protected in Austria as well so I released her the day after.
I'm building a room dedicated to ant keeping right now and my ambitions in making terrariums is greater than the colonies I have to live in them.
My huge manica rubida colony I loved passed away recently so I'm trying to fill that void somehow.

I totally understand.

I actually have also thought about taking parts of the huge polygyne colony of Myrmica rubra that lives in the garden of my parents (basically, under each stepping stone, there is a branch nest), since I also adore these bright red fire ants (Manica rubida is a bit larger, though). But then I thought better of it.

So yes, I understand. Everyone tells me that one needs patience for ant keeping, but it is hard and I try to learn....

 

Question-

how big is your Messor barbarus colony now after 2 years?

I bought one from an ant keeper from Ebay Kleinanzeigen with 150 workers and it is also supposedly around 2 years old.

From reading up, I think 150 workers after 2 years might be a bit small, but I find it hard to judge.

[AntaholicAnonymous]

I just checked my journal on them and they are actually 3 years old my bad.

I only keep ants in setups with soil.
In terrariums it's hard to tell how many you have in there especially since messor are not very active above ground if they have a good seed storage.

I had to move them per Hand in the 2nd year so I picked up every single ant. I'd say it was around 300 by the end of the 2nd year.
Now after 3 I'd estimate 500 to 600 but that's a rough guess.

I was able to count the corpses of my manica colony that died and they were at 1037. Took me many hours to gather and count them.

[AntObserver]

 

IMO it's perfectly fine to collect colonies as long as you know you can get a queen or multiple, fill in the hole, and that the ants you're digging up are locally abundant/abundant all over the state. Most midwestern ant keepers have at least a few dug up colonies since it's nearly impossible for us to catch flights of certain ants in the Midwest if you don't live right next to a sand prairie, such as Pheidole bicarinata or Aphenogastor treatae. I've also went back to the same places I've dug up ants before for multiple years and there's never been a difference from only taking one or two small colonies, or taking a few queens and a few hundred workers out of a mature Formica colony. Colonies of locally abundant ants should never be collected in large amounts though, but taking 1 or 2 small/medium colonies won't hurt a population. As long as you stay respectful to the environment and know what you're doing collecting colonies is fine.

Fair enough, but the size of the colony is irrelevant. Small colonies are needed to grow and replace large colonies. This is exactly why there are size limits set for fishing, for example. 

 

 

Except there are literally millions of colonies that send out thousands of queens annually. As long as the population in the area is good then taking a colony from wild will not matter. Overfishing is a real problem, overanting isn't. Fortunately. Happy anting and collecting to all. 

[AntObserver]

I personally don’t see a problem with collecting wild colonies, as long as you aren’t overdoing it that is. Some species have ergatoid queens and/or exclusively reproduce by budding so it is literally impossible to found from a single queen in those cases, and in others like harpagoxenus the chances of even finding a lone queen are basically zero due to the tiny size and even then founding a slave maker like that is a difficult task.


Also I’m somewhat worried this thread is gonna devolve into unnecessary drama as the collection of wild colonies is a bit of a controversial topic.

 

Exactly

[DinoH]

I did fall to this temptation two months ago. My father was playing with my dog and exposed a small Aphenogaster sp. colony beneath leaf litter. My father said to me that I could take them but I refused. He enxisted so I fell for it. They are somewere in my vivarium. Sometimes I look for their nest but I can't find it. Sometimes I see them emerging and hunting for crickets and other invertebrates that I keep there.

 

One day I saw that my beetles in that terrarium needed more wood to nest so I went to the woods ant took a piece of wood and added to the viviarium. The other day I saw there where Tetramorium immigrants in the wood but I ignored them because I know they are introduced and would not change much in the wild or the vivarium.

 

I have been looking at care guides for Strumigelys, is it ok to take wild Strumigelys colonies from the wild? They do not oftem peform in nuptial flights.

[Virginian_ants]

I agree with Manitobant under basically every rock and log in my backyard there are Aphaenogaster colonies so when I first moved here I collected a small colony with less than 50 workers. I think is that it's okay to collect wild colonies if they are either invasive or incredibly common. I've had the urge to take other rarer species but I have to hold back.

[AntObserver]

fact of the matter is there are simply too many ants out there for you to possibly have a negative impact on local populations. Millions of alates fly every year, collect and observe friends.

[ANTdrew]

Humans have said the same thing about all sorts of organisms such as crabs, oysters, fish, orchids, parrots, etc. No plant or animal is an infinite resource, even less so if you are only collecting reproductive individuals.

[antperson24]

Usually I would be against taking entire colonies out of the wild... However.. today I was I a forest and flipped a rock and saw hundreds of formica fusca ants crawling underneath. Beautiful.

I felt the overwhelming urge to hunt the queen down and take them home with me but I can see arguments why you shouldn't.
What are your thoughts on it?
Definite no?
Maybe leave protected/endangered and rare species alone but take one Colonie of a very common species?
Id like to hear your thoughts. I can't stop thinking about that colony and the amazing setup I could provide for them.

I only take wild colonies if It is a species I have been unable to raise in the past, and is fairly common. I would highly suggest not taking whole colonies of a rare or endangered species.