13 replies to this topic

[Formiga]

Hi folks!

 

A question just popped into my mind... Can a queen ant produce and lay "unlimited" eggs, as long as she's fed proteins and has the correct environment?

 

Can a queen ant keep on producing new eggs or she's like the female human that is born with a set fix amount of eggs that just mature when it's time?

 

 

 

Thanks guys, cheers.

[aznphenom]

That's not how it works. Female alates get sperm from the male during nuptial flights and store that sperm for the rest of her life.

https://www.nhm.ac.u...ial-flight.html

 

EDIT: Yes. I am pretty sure an queen can keep producing eggs indefinitely as long if there is protein because they produce eggs without sperm too. Like human though, they do have a set amount of fertilization potential though. That amount just happens to be more than their life time. I am assuming a female human stops producing egg stems from how our DNA breakdown by age. Don't want to product offspring with deformity and missing/extra chromosomes. 

Edited by aznphenom, April 18 2023 - 10:30 AM.

[Canadian anter]

That's not how it works. Female alates get sperm from the male during nuptial flights and store that sperm for the rest of her life.

https://www.nhm.ac.u...ial-flight.html

I think he means if the egg-producing cells can multiply infinitely in the ovaries, which I have no idea about.

 

(e.g. Can egg production become a bottleneck in a queen's lifetime, assuming infinite lifespan/sperm etc)

[Formiga]

Thanks for your replies, guys.

 

I wasn't clear in my question.

I know they collect semen from different alate males during nupcial flights (therefore, that's a limited resource) but I just meant egg production, not their fertilization.

 

I also know they can choose to fertilize or not to fertilize an egg (that's incredible!), and that's how they feed the first batch of larvae that need protein that has to come from the queen's eggs while there's no one else around to get an external protein source, and she chooses not to fertilize them so not to waste the limited storage of semen.

 

 

Let me put a practical context:

I have some Messor queens that are a few months old, I caught them in November and then the cold times came and they entered hibernation (this timing doesn't make sense to me but it seems to be how they work, so...).

After hibernation most of them survived and most of them laid eggs. Back then I didn't have test tubes so I placed them in a syringe, but that has a very small ability to store water compared to a test tube, so most of the went completely dry and I had to move them regardless.

After getting the test tubes I moved them into them, but a couple of them didn't go smoothly and I believe they freaked out and have eaten their eggs (that's a known behavior).

So I'm curious if they will lay eggs again, considering the circumstances.

I know their energy reserves and time to be able to birth the 1st offspring are limited...

I'm also wondering if I should feed them a small dead fruit fly or just leave them be.

If they don't have new eggs they won't eat them, but would they accept this food?

 

What would be better for these queens?

I'd rather ask first than do them harm again, poor creatures have suffered enough in my inexperienced hands...

[aznphenom]

I havent tried since my first year. But you can definitely feed them. You most likely have to place it as close as possible to the queen. I have always been under the impression that queens normally have enough protein reserve to lay at least 6+ eggs. Assuming they lose 50% of the protein when eating the egg, they should have enough to lay a new one. I have had dozens of queens. Never had one not be able to lay again.

[Formiga]

Many thanks for your reply.

 

I fed them honey once and I remember they attacked the pliers very fiercely!

i just hope they can later see that it's not a menace but actual food that's being offered and they take it.

 

I will do this only to the queens that have no brood, I'm not risking disturbing the other ones as they seem to be pretty close to get their 1st nannies.

 

By the way, what would be better? A normal fly or a smaller fruit fly?

The normal fly as more food in it, but it's bigger and can be more perceived as a menace, even if dead. I know Messors are mainly scavengers, so I'll kill and boil the fly first for a couple of seconds and then remove it from their test tube a couple of days later so it won't rot or infect the test tube and the queen.

Any hints are obviously welcome.

[Rrar]

I think it would be better to give them a fruit fly because it saves time

[Formiga]

I don't understand what you mean by saving time...

 

Meanwhile I've already stepped into action.

I've caught a normal fly and "cooked" it.

Then when checking the queens, most of them, if not really all of them, have eggs. This means the ones I thought they've eaten their eggs haven't done it after all, or they've laid new ones. That's a good sign either way.

So now I have around 18 fertile expecting Messor queens... Honestly I don't know what to do with them all, there will be a time when I'll be overwhelmed by them, they are far too many! I'll try to give a few to a friend or sell them online locally, I think that's the best thing to do.

 

Meanwhile, I've taken a queen from my ant dark box only to realize she had eggs after all.

She's on one side where there's water and the eggs are on the other side, it seems to be the best humidity place according to her, and she's the one who knows.
Since she and the eggs are on opposite sides, I gave her the fly, at least in the moment she didn't attack it, in fact she seemed to ignore it. I've covered her and I'm giving her overnight undisturbed time for her to make up her mind. I'm curious, but as ant keepers, at least in the beginning times, we must have more patience than curiosity...

[Manitobant]

Once a queen is mated, she can produce enough eggs to last her entire life and grow her colony to a massive size. I guess there theoretically a “cap” but it is never actually reached. Even army ants which actually need to mate multiple times over the first 6 months of their lives are good to go after this period.

[Formiga]

Even army ants which actually need to mate multiple times over the first 6 months of their lives are good to go after this period.

Very interesting!
How does this happen during these 6 months?

Does she mate still inside her original nest, does she fly around mating for 6 months and then she decides to dig her own founding chamber, does she mate for the first time, digs her hole and then once in a while she comes out to mate (but what about her wings?)

 

I'm always being surprised by these little fellows that have wisen up for millions of years!

[Formiga]

I havent tried since my first year. But you can definitely feed them. You most likely have to place it as close as possible to the queen.

 

With this all, one doubt just popped out into my mind: Do Messor queen ants have the mouth parts to be able to feed themselves alone out from a solid dead insect?

[ANTdrew]

Yes, they do. Feed freshly killed insects that are still juicy inside, though.

[Formiga]

Le juices! Makes sense, @ANTdrew, thanks for clarifying.

 

And another thing that popped out of my mind, regarding queen ant egg laying ability.

If they freak out and eat their eggs, I'm not surprised they can lay some new eggs again, as they should still be available (yet unfertilized) to feed their larvae until the first nannies are born and can "go shopping for food". And I have no clue whatsoever (and I doubt anyone has ever counted) how many eggs a larva needs to be fed until it's able to pupate. Feeding them until the first nannies are born is the real resources stress to queens, not laying some new ones after she had eaten the previous batch.

 

By the way, I've checked the Ant Care Sheets and there isn't one for Messors.

I'm guessing since they seem to be easy and forgiving to bring up, people have focused more on the hardest species that need more specific advice. Maybe after this experience I'll write it, as for now, as you can see, I'm clearly still such a noobiddy noobiddy noob!

[Manitobant]

Even army ants which actually need to mate multiple times over the first 6 months of their lives are good to go after this period.

Very interesting!
How does this happen during these 6 months?
Does she mate still inside her original nest, does she fly around mating for 6 months and then she decides to dig her own founding chamber, does she mate for the first time, digs her hole and then once in a while she comes out to mate (but what about her wings?)
 
I'm always being surprised by these little fellows that have wisen up for millions of years!

army ant queens are unique in that they are actually wingless (something known as an ergatoid queen) and the colonies reproduce by fission, which basically means that a virgin queen and a bunch of workers split off from the mother nest and start a new colony. During the first 6 months after the split, the queen will use pheromones to attract males which fly in and mate with her. Its a very interesting way of starting a colony and army ants are definitely something worth reading up on.