187 replies to this topic

[100lols]

Now the question is which house are they a part of??

The power of ants! But seriously… Any hypothesis as to how the ants are keeping the apple from rotting?? Lots of licking??

[Full_Frontal_Yeti]

Nothing particularly of note to post about. The colony keeps on keeping on. I estimate they number between 250-300+ now. But they’d be about impossible to  count being spread out so much among the three outworlds and three nests.

 

They get in for the foil, so I drop a couple fresh ones in every few days when it looks like the ones they got have been played out.

   

They did just a couple days ago have one major change, they moved into the nest proper, somewhat fully.
They had been treating the first small outworld as nest space for some time now looking like this most of the time:

 

But now it looks like this:

 

 

On the overnight a mass of them still move out of the nest and go spend the night in small and med outworlds(the ones with lids). But now in the morning when the lights come on, they all go back into the nest proper. While in the past they would only leave the med outworld but continue just living in the small as if it were nest.

Not sure what’s changed for them but something has.

 

 

Also I find it odd that on the overnight the majority of them move into the outworlds where it gets down to whatever ambient is, often in the low 60s to 40s during winter. While the nest is a constant 83-85f only dipping into the high 70s if ambient gets into the low 50s or colder. The 15 watt cable can only keep up with so much.

 

 

And here is the apple bit still same as it ever was on 12-3-23, but they have moved it into the nest now.

[Locness]

Does the heat affect the blu tack in any way?

[ANTdrew]

No, it’s a good way to attach heat cables.

[Full_Frontal_Yeti]

Does the heat affect the blu tack in any way?

I find two minor quibbles why blue tak is not perfection, but it is close.

1: the warmed blue tak is a little more pliable. So with my tension placement method, if the tension is a little too high on a spot, the blue tak will slowly deform and eventually slip its hold position. Takes weeks to month+, it's real slow but it can happen that the tak gives way and the cable comes out of position. So slow you always notice it happening and can just reform and press it back down before it slips.

2: the warmed blu tak gets just a tiny bit sticky on the glass. I have to blot up some little bits of it that stay on the glass. It comes off easy, just not 100% off the way it tedns to work on cold walls for holding up posters or whatever. Not that i pull it off the glass commonly or anything but it is a situaiotn i've noticed occurs.

So yes i recommend it, but those will be the copes in if you use it.
Unlike the painters tape no sticky residue is every left behind and what blu tak is left behind, blots up into a larger ball of blu tak easily, leaving clean no stickiness glass.

Edited by Full_Frontal_Yeti, December 5 2023 - 11:55 AM.

[rptraut]

Hello Full Frontal Yeti
Great journal and colony. Magnets will usually slide apart much easier than separating them by pulling or prying them apart. It might be easier to slide the lid over instead of lifting or prying it off. You may not even need to open it all the way to do what you have to do with the colony.

Actually, museum glass is fairly heavy. Do you really need the magnets? Would gravity hold it in place well enough?
RPT

[Full_Frontal_Yeti]

Hello Full Frontal Yeti
Great journal and colony. Magnets will usually slide apart much easier than separating them by pulling or prying them apart. It might be easier to slide the lid over instead of lifting or prying it off. You may not even need to open it all the way to do what you have to do with the colony.

Actually, museum glass is fairly heavy. Do you really need the magnets? Would gravity hold it in place well enough?
RPT

 

Thanks for the journal appreciation.

I live in earthquake country. Everything has to have a minimum amount of "lock down" going on to stay in place in case things get shaky. Also i'm kind of a spaz, i'd not trust myself to not bump it out of place sometimes.
Though for my DIY i do use a less strong magnet pairing than commonly comes on the THA products. Not just good, but good enough.

Importantly on museum glass, i only ever find it with both the anti-reflect coating and anti-UV coat, which are on opposite sides of the glass. The anti-UV coating is a soft easy to scratch coating normally faced to the inside of the displayed art frame.
However for nests with ants already in them. If the glass needs to be replaced/swapped for cleaning, then the slide method is required in order to not release ants when doing so.

With that in mind, I find it important to install the glass with the anti-UV coat face up, so it won't get scratched when being dragged across the nest surface during a slide off/on maneuver.
You can't reliably visually tell which side is which.  Be sure to get the store to denote one side for you. If not marked, the UV coat is soft enough to scratch with a fingernail. You can test it where it won't be in the main view window space.

Edited by Full_Frontal_Yeti, December 14 2023 - 10:22 AM.

[Mirandarachnid]

And here is the apple bit still same as it ever was on 12-3-23, but they have moved it into the nest now.
IMG_20231203_075505_HDR.jpg

I recently read that this species apparently has displayed an ability to preserve food by drying and rehydrating fruits and dead insects.

[Full_Frontal_Yeti]

 

And here is the apple bit still same as it ever was on 12-3-23, but they have moved it into the nest now.
IMG_20231203_075505_HDR.jpg

I recently read that this species apparently has displayed an ability to preserve food by drying and rehydrating fruits and dead insects.

 

Thanks for that. Watching them now for so many weeks, i had no other clonclusions left but that they clearly know what they are doing with these apple bits. And drying it to preserve it is exactly what they seem to be doing.
I note they were not doing this uintl the colony was pushing well over 100+. Prior to that they just licked the juices off the apple slices but never cut bits off it. Then one day, they started tearing up apple and stashing the bits in places of their own away from the trash pile and the in nest seed larder.
 

Edited by Full_Frontal_Yeti, December 19 2023 - 12:01 PM.

[Full_Frontal_Yeti]

Little new news to report, the colony trucks on. I do believe the brood pile is growing, but very slowly. I'd estimate the lay/eclose rate is something like 1.05/1.
The brood pile seemed the same size for a long time, but does seem to be a tiny bit bigger than it used to be. So i guess she outpaces the hatch rate but only a tiny bit.

 

I got a uniquely identifiable ant again. The last one had no Antenna and was extra large, making her easy to notice. She behaved differently for it too so she was really interesting to watch. It's really neat when there is one at you can 'know' and look for among them all to see what they are up to.

This one has one whole and one half antenna. So she behaves like the rest of the ants having a normal sense of smell, but is still visually identifiable among them. Still younger too so not yet having the deeper red coloring helps her stand out among the rest of the foragers in the outworld.

 

I was out of town for a week and had a friend check in on the ants to be sure they had plenty of fresh water. They will arbitrarily decide to pile up dirt to empty their water dispenser sometimes.

Good thing too, when i returned i discovered i had let their nest water towers run dry. With top down nests I can't really see into any of them very well to determine water levels. Sometimes they just are covering the tops and other times the water is so clear you just can't spot the water line at all to gauge fill level*.

They were spread out in various chambers, but in each one they were super tightly huddled up in a way i had not seen before.

Currently i use the syringe to inject air and listen for bubbling sounds, for checking water levels. only one chamber had any left in it and only a tiny bit.
As soon as added water the whole colony sort of woke up and all spread back out more.

They continue to save apple bits, anytime i add a slice they cut it down by nearly half in a couple days. Stashing bits of apple all over the various space they have, but none of it goes in the trash pile.

And they still “play” with the foil. Seriously check it out, give your ants something they can play with like this and see what they do.

 

 

* water tower levels: the thing i want to try is placing a tiny bright colored plastic bead in the water tower before sealing the mesh on. A bright color float should make it easy to spot the water line.

Edited by Full_Frontal_Yeti, December 19 2023 - 12:01 PM.

[100lols]

Love the bright colored float idea for checking water levels in the top down!

These girls just seem happy as can be. Winter isn't slowing anything down for them

Edited by 100lols, December 19 2023 - 12:10 PM.

[UtahAnts]

That tinfoil ball behavior is great! My late occi colony only shredded the tinfoil I put in their outworld.

 

A bit off-topic but have you ever considered adding some coarse pebbles to the outworld? They may appreciate the opportunity to build and maintain a mound entrance as they would in the wild. 

Edited by UtahAnts, December 28 2023 - 1:23 PM.

[Ernteameise]

Wow, that tin-foil behaviour is really weird. Never seen this before.

[Full_Frontal_Yeti]

That tinfoil ball behavior is great! My late occi colony only shredded the tinfoil I put in their outworld.

 

A bit off-topic but have you ever considered adding some coarse pebbles to the outworld? They may appreciate the opportunity to build and maintain a mound entrance as they would in the wild. 

I did that first before the foil. I had read about them closing up their nest at night with rocks in the wild. So I gathered up a handful of tiny pebbles, cleaned them up, and put them in the outworld. They did and still do drag them around a bit. But like the foil they mostly wind up in the trash pile. And like the foil still get moved around a bit from time to time later. But  the stones have not been used to build anything specific and are nowhere near as popular as the foils bits are.

[Full_Frontal_Yeti]

Q: Outworlds, lid or no lid? A: Your choice for your outcomes.

 

 

I had been of the mind that plenty more space in the outworld was needed to let the ants roam/forage as they do in the wild. Now I think what matters more for this is open air top outworlds, but room to roam is still an influence too, just not as key as I had thought it was.

 

I had the large outworld open top for some time now, but recently took the lid off the med outworld too. Been using fluon to keep them in (they don’t try too hard to get out).
The change was obvious, open air outworlds have way fewer ants out in them.
The nests, while still plenty of room to grow, also started looking more crowded, as fewer ants were willing to just “hang out” in the open air top outworlds.

 

When I keep a top on the med outworld, it gets lived in way more. More ants just hanging out and treating the space as their nest rather than the dangerous outside world.

I found that with my setup, the med world is very front and center to things. Keeping the lid on it keeps the main viewing angle busier/more interesting.

So while I still say try to give a good 4/1 or better ratio for outworld/nest space. The open air top outworld is going to make a much bigger difference in their behavior than the amount of outworld they have.

The biggest change that drove me to relid the med outworld was trash. Once the med outworld was outside to them, they stopped taking the trash all the way to the large outworld and started stuffing trash in all the dugout nooks and cervices they’ve made there.

 

Once the med outworld was closed up back up they took all the trash out to the established trash zone in the large out world.

 

So yes try to get your ants a good amount of roaming space in their outworld. But more importantly, if you want to see something closer to their outdoor wild behaviors, have an outworld with no lid.

 

Also give them foil.The long foil bits are the most hilarious to watch them wrangle.

  

 

 

When they finally managed to line this one up with the tube to take it out some of them had a sudden change of heart and a long tug of war ensued between team take it out and team keep it here.

     

 

              

 

 

                 

 

 

And the ever popular smooth bird.

 

Edited by Full_Frontal_Yeti, December 30 2023 - 8:53 AM.

[Full_Frontal_Yeti]

Ever growing.

 

I recently changed up the thermostat settings now that I have three nests and two heat cables going.

I did this in response to watching where they congregate and noting they spread out the brood over a temperature gradient when they can. But prefer to hang out where it is cooler than they keep the late stage brood.

 

 

Here's the whole setup.

Outworlds upfront, nest behind them. Smallest outworld on the left has the nest entrance. With three nest blocks hooked up with tube for one big nest. Big light hoods use incandescent 25 watt bulbs in winter, and LEDs in summer. The big outworld is LED lights only with no heating. Whatever room ambient is it is.

 

 

The first nest at the entrance has heat cable on it, and gets some of the nearby incandescent overhead bulb’s heat. I stopped filling the water tower in this one and let it be the driest. They crowd into two of the chambers but mostly don’t use much of this space. Commonly staging seeds and fruit bits there before moving them deeper into the nest.

The 2nd nest part is the heart shaped water towers “nursery” nest I made. And this is the most used nest space currently. I keep the thermostat in this one at 78-81f. The bulk of the workers, the Queen, and the mid stage brood are all packed in here.

 

The 3rd nest part is the large nest I also made. This is where they keep the seed and dried fruit larders. As well as the early and late stage brood piles. The pupae, eggs clutches, and tiny larvae clutches are kept here on a water tower. Once a larvae is big enough it drops off a clutch, it’ll be moved to the nursery nest with the mid stage brood where the bulk of the larvae feeding goes on. The thermostat in this one is set at 83-85f. And I note they sometimes move the late stage pupae to the hottest part of the nest where it is going over 85f with the added overhead incandescent light, and being farthest from the temp probe, but still right on the heat cable.

 

Now with so much more room and ability to have a wider heat gradient I can see how they really make use of it.

 

They still play with foil. FYI, these are well folded and pressed foil bits. I start with a bit maybe 3-5x as big as i will end with. For balls just compress them tightly. For shapes, fold and press so it stays rigid in it's shape. I did find out that single unfolded bit of foil will be torn up and shredded fairly quickly. But a tightly folded shape stands up to them and just gets moved around aggressively.

 

 

 

 

And I introduced a foil ring which has proved to be very popular.

[Ernteameise]

You set-up is awesome. I think I could sit hours in front of it, just watching the action.

Great little colony, and I find it fascinating that they play with the foil!

[Full_Frontal_Yeti]

Everything seems great here.
A larger nest has been taken advantage of for ants and brood to be in their most optimal temperature zone. Keeping each nest a bit cooler than the next.
Large nest at the back is 80-84f

Middle nest 78-80f

Small front nest ??? as I don't have a temp probe in it, but it should be the coolest with the least amount of heat cable contact, and sharing the heat cable on thermostat with the middle nest.

 

The large nest winds up keeping food larders and the earliest stage brood(egg clutches and larvae clutches not yet being fed) as well as all the pupae and larvae about to pupate(done eating).

The middle nest winds up with the bulk of ants and feeding stage larvae. The queen also spends most of her time here.

The front nest gets two tightly packed with ants chambers but then is mostly unused. They will stage food here from foraging, before moving it deeper into the nest.

As usual on the overnight when the lights go off, if I have any fruit making humidity in the first small nest, it is packed with ants in the morning, that all start moving back into the nest when the lights come on.

Still feeding them the smooth bird pate' style cat food, fish flakes, apple slices, and seeds. Though I decided they had a plenty fat seed larder so I’m letting them burn through most of that before giving them more seeds. I did decide that if wild they keep a seed larder then I wanted to let them have one here too. Imaging expecting to keep a cupboard full of stored food, but where you live you can never find enough to pile up for hard times. You'd likely get a bit stressed finding that you live in a place too short on food to make a larder out of.

It's part of why I imagine that more regular feedings of smaller amounts. Are better for them, than larger feedings spread out over more time.
The more days they go without finding new food, the chittier the place they live must be assessed to be form their POV.

 

I can't help but find they must have some form of collective understanding about the quality of their local environment. And that is likely a heavy weight for how easy/common food is to come by. How much abundance is there, can we store up extra for hard times?
So I feed them several times a week rather than just once or twice. Not a lot of extra food, just spread out more so they have successful scavenging more often than not. And I make sure to let them build up a bit of a seed larder as they go.

 

All in all they seem to be doing really well. I did add a little light block foil to the back side of one of the overhead lamps. It puts the nest where the queen stays most in a shadow rather than let it be directly lit.
Still plenty of light in the general area to see them, just not shining directly on them in that particular nest any more.

 

 

Busy time in the morning when the light comes on.

 

 

They stay busy with the foil. And you can see their mandible marks along it too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Full_Frontal_Yeti]

Ants, lots and lots of ants.

 

That play with aluminum foil

 

 

And quick show of the big nest here

On the left is where thigns are hottest. They keep the dried apple bits and some seeds here. They also move the late stage pupae here sometimes.

On the right are the water towers where the main non-feeding stage brood are kept, and a seeds only larder.

 

They keep all the other smaller chambers here empty, with maybe one or two ants hanging out in them sometimes. The front nest also has several chambers left empty and largely ignored.

 

Just an interesting thing to note that Pogonomyrmex Occidentalis seem to not mind having extra nest space too much. They keep a clean no trash nest, even though there is more room here then they can really make full use of right now.

[Full_Frontal_Yeti]

Things are maybe not so good?

 

The colony as a whole seems ok, however...
I started a different thread to work out an oddity in the colony, and now i believe they have some kind of pathogen infecting them. Maybe parasitic nematodes or something like that that is living in their gut.

Whatever it is turns their gasters black inside in a spotty/blotchy kind of way. Sometimes it starts at the tip and works up other times at the top and spreads to the tip.
In all cases it's some kind of a black patchiness inside them.

 

I've not got a microscope, but yesterday I found a young worker (color) that was dying and had the black gaster. Which was now also showing patches of white in it.

With that i took out the pooter and started culling all ants that had any blackening of their gasters. I probably culled about 30-40. With the colony estimated to be in the 200-300 range somewhere.
I'll keep doing this for as long as i find the markings on any of them i guess. Whatever it is ain't good, and i can't do anything about ants that stay in the nest.

 

I hope as long as the queen don't catch whatever the colony will be fine.

 

I'm not certain yet, but it might cause some changes in their behavior too, more observations needed though.

 

 

I intend to keep this thread as the log of what's up with the colony, and do any trouble shooting in other threads.

And so that's what's up, little worried about infection right now.

The bulk of the colony show no signs of the blackening gasters, hopefully whatever it is will be kept in check and not spead to the queen.
If i'm lucky maybe it's just a one off infection of something that can't fulfill its life cycle in captivity, and will just die off on it's own eventually taking some number of colony with it, but not the whole colony.


Here's a fun pic of playing with foil.