19 replies to this topic

[FinWins]

So I was checking out the USDA APHIS website I came across a loophole in the law. According to USDA APHIS you need to have a PPQ 526 permit to move plant pests across state lines legally. However ants in the genera Odontomachus and Stigmatomma aren’t plant pests because of of their purely carnivorous diet there for is it actually legal to transport Odontomachus and Stigmatomma across state lines?
Just some food for thought.

Edited by FinWins, July 21 2022 - 1:07 PM.

[FloridaAnts]

1) They do need nectar

2) All arthropods(other than some other insects like butterflies) are considered plant pest. P. Occidentali s has been regulated except to Florida

[CheetoLord02]

https://www.ecfr.gov...section-330.200

"Plant pests regulated by this subpart. APHIS will consider an organism to be a plant pest if the organism directly or indirectly injures, causes damage to, or causes disease in a plant or plant product, or if the organism is an unknown risk to plants or plant products, but is similar to an organism known to directly or indirectly injure, cause damage to, or cause disease in a plant or plant product."

There's the caveat: "unknown risk to plants or plant products, but is similar to an organism known to directly injure, cause damage to, or cause disease in a plant or plant product."

By saying this, there is effectively a blanket ban on all ants, as generally speaking the impact of any given species will be "unknown", however because they are an ant, they are therefore related/similar to other known plant pests (I.E. Atta, Solenopsis invicta), and banned. The reason why Pogonomyrmex occidentalis was able to become deregulated is because they are a species with decades of research behind them, one of the most well-studied ants in the US, and those studies has proven that they actually have a positive impact on plant communities where they are present. Therefore their impact on plants is no longer unknown, and they're actually proven to be beneficial to plants, and as such, deregulated.

In order to deregulate more ant species, similar amounts of work and study would need to be done to prove that they are not plant pests, which unfortunately for the vast majority of ants is simply not going to happen.
 

[FinWins]

I didn’t know that they needed nectar, but do they milk scale bugs and aphids?

[bmb1bee]

1) They do need nectar

2) All arthropods(other than some other insects like butterflies) are considered plant pest. P. Occidentali s has been regulated except to Florida

Odontomachus maybe, but not Stigmatomma. They're cryptic and live completely subterranean lives right? They shouldn't be able to harm plants in any kind of way, as they only eat soil centipedes. 

[FloridaAnts]

I didn’t know that they needed nectar, but do they milk scale bugs and aphids?

They use EFN’s

[FloridaAnts]

1) They do need nectar
2) All arthropods(other than some other insects like butterflies) are considered plant pest. P. Occidentali s has been regulated except to Florida

Odontomachus maybe, but not Stigmatomma. They're cryptic and live completely subterranean lives right? They shouldn't be able to harm plants in any kind of way, as they only eat soil centipedes.

“Our understanding of the biology of the species assigned to Stigmatomma is far from comprehensive as it is based on generalizations from limited observations of a few species. One of the major culprits for our lack of observations is the cryptobiotic lifestyle of these ants, which hampers access to their colonies and studies on their behavior” -AntWiki

Therefore, we don't fully understand their impacts or behavior. I guess we would dereg them if we knew much more about them

[NicholasP]

You know... I never thought about Stigmatomma for the last 6 months. And I really now think I should go back to my Stigmatomma pallipes spot to collect queens and study them. 

[bullyfan]

1) They do need nectar

2) All arthropods(other than some other insects like butterflies) are considered plant pest. P. Occidentali s has been regulated except to Florida

Would tarantulas be considered plant pests? The tarantula trade has been going on for a very long time already with mostly exotic tarantulas and usada really hasn't done much to stop them. 

Edited by bullyfan, July 22 2022 - 1:09 PM.

[FinWins]

1) They do need nectar
2) All arthropods(other than some other insects like butterflies) are considered plant pest. P. Occidentali s has been regulated except to Florida

Would tarantulas be considered plant pests? The tarantula trade has been going on for a very long time already with mostly exotic tarantulas and usada really hasn't done much to stop them.

No, unless they were imported illegally tarantulas are exempt from APHIS

[ZTYguy]

 

1) They do need nectar

2) All arthropods(other than some other insects like butterflies) are considered plant pest. P. Occidentali s has been regulated except to Florida

Would tarantulas be considered plant pests? The tarantula trade has been going on for a very long time already with mostly exotic tarantulas and usada really hasn't done much to stop them. 

 

Tarantulas have never been thought as plant pests and they do not have any known negative effects on agriculture surrounding plants and vegetation.

[bullyfan]

 

 

1) They do need nectar

2) All arthropods(other than some other insects like butterflies) are considered plant pest. P. Occidentali s has been regulated except to Florida

Would tarantulas be considered plant pests? The tarantula trade has been going on for a very long time already with mostly exotic tarantulas and usada really hasn't done much to stop them. 

 

Tarantulas have never been thought as plant pests and they do not have any known negative effects on agriculture surrounding plants and vegetation.

 

According to FloridaAnts, all arthropods are considered plant pests and Tarantulas are very much arthropods. More in the middle are exotic mantids and assassin bugs which are in the hobby trading freely under usada's nose.  Is there a list of what is a plant pest or what isn't? I don't see any rule that states that ants are not ok, but tarantulas, mantids, and assassins are. 

 

It would seem that tarantulas are  biological control organisms and thus not legal. 

Biological control organisms regulated by this subpart. For the purposes of this subpart, biological control organisms include:

(1) Invertebrate predators and parasites (parasitoids) used to control invertebrate plant pests;

(2) Invertebrate competitors used to control invertebrate plant pests;

(3) Invertebrate herbivores used to control noxious weeds;

(4) Microbial pathogens used to control invertebrate plant pests;

(5) Microbial pathogens used to control noxious weeds;

(6) Microbial parasites used to control plant pathogens; and

(7) Any other types of biological control organisms, as determined by APHIS.

 

 

Edited by bullyfan, July 22 2022 - 3:41 PM.

[bullyfan]

 

 

1) They do need nectar
2) All arthropods(other than some other insects like butterflies) are considered plant pest. P. Occidentali s has been regulated except to Florida

Would tarantulas be considered plant pests? The tarantula trade has been going on for a very long time already with mostly exotic tarantulas and usada really hasn't done much to stop them.

No, unless they were imported illegally tarantulas are exempt from APHIS

 

Honest question, where does it say tarantulas are exempt, thanks

 

It would seem that tarantulas are  biological control organisms and thus not legal. 

Biological control organisms regulated by this subpart. For the purposes of this subpart, biological control organisms include:

(1) Invertebrate predators and parasites (parasitoids) used to control invertebrate plant pests;

(2) Invertebrate competitors used to control invertebrate plant pests;

(3) Invertebrate herbivores used to control noxious weeds;

(4) Microbial pathogens used to control invertebrate plant pests;

(5) Microbial pathogens used to control noxious weeds;

(6) Microbial parasites used to control plant pathogens; and

(7) Any other types of biological control organisms, as determined by APHIS.

Edited by bullyfan, July 22 2022 - 3:41 PM.

[FinWins]

You know the YouTube channel The Insect Hunter? Well he did a review on the PPQ 526 permit and said that tarantulas are not part of APHIS coverage.

[bullyfan]

You know the YouTube channel The Insect Hunter? Well he did a review on the PPQ 526 permit and said that tarantulas are not part of APHIS coverage.

Thanks!

Haven't heard about the channel but i'll give it a look. 

[FloridaAnts]

1) They do need nectar
2) All arthropods(other than some other insects like butterflies) are considered plant pest. P. Occidentali s has been regulated except to Florida

Would tarantulas be considered plant pests? The tarantula trade has been going on for a very long time already with mostly exotic tarantulas and usada really hasn't done much to stop them.

No, unless they were imported illegally tarantulas are exempt from APHIS

Honest question, where does it say tarantulas are exempt, thanks
 
It would seem that tarantulas are  biological control organisms and thus not legal. 
Biological control organisms regulated by this subpart. For the purposes of this subpart, biological control organisms include:

(1) Invertebrate predators and parasites (parasitoids) used to control invertebrate plant pests;


(2) Invertebrate competitors used to control invertebrate plant pests;


(3) Invertebrate herbivores used to control noxious weeds;


(4) Microbial pathogens used to control invertebrate plant pests;


(5) Microbial pathogens used to control noxious weeds;


(6) Microbial parasites used to control plant pathogens; and


(7) Any other types of biological control organisms, as determined by APHIS.

Tarantulas are covered in 2 it seems… they do control some insects, and I happen to know a few insects that control them…

Anyone could be wrong though, as Many YouTubers say queen ants can live for 30 years. False! Not one,(unless I am mistaken) has gotten a 30 year old queen. I believe their is one report of a Laius Niger queen living 29 years

[FinWins]

Soooo many people sell tarantulas that if selling tarantulas/Arthropods is illegal then APHIS doesn’t care

Edited by FinWins, July 22 2022 - 5:36 PM.

[Superant33]

I have been keeping Odontomachus for years, and they don’t need nectar. My young colonies completely ignore it. However, my older colonies accept it. Trap jaws look cute when drinking from a sugar source.

[FloridaAnts]

I have been keeping Odontomachus for years, and they don’t need nectar. My young colonies completely ignore it. However, my older colonies accept it. Trap jaws look cute when drinking from a sugar source.

100% cute. You should see wild colonies when I spare them some… I feel we are getting off topic though…

[ANTS_KL]

Anyone could be wrong though, as Many YouTubers say queen ants can live for 30 years. False! Not one,(unless I am mistaken) has gotten a 30 year old queen. I believe their is one report of a Laius Niger queen living 29 years

 

The queen was one kept in laboratory conditions. This means that it would be unlikely for it to happen to any of our ants, but it sure did happen. And most ant species have gynes that live up to 5-10 years in tropical places and even longer in temperate regions.