22 replies to this topic

[aznphenom]

Like a lot of people. I started off the hobby with fluon from ByFormica. The applicators seemed cool and easy to use. and I wanted the clarity. I never talk ill of stuff that I don't use (talc) but I always talked highly of fluon. I never understood how anyone would want that huge thick white border around their nests. Honestly, it could be user error but fluon has repetitively failed at containing my Crematogaster so I finally decided to use talc. Another reason I am switching over to talc is because I couldn't find fluon in a big bottle, especially now bioquip is closed. I wanted a bottle of it so I can use a brush to apply it. But yesterday, I applied talc to some outworlds so I can do a full transfer and back of the crema so I clean out their outworld. I can now confidently recommend talc. I didn't have the lid on and I felt okay with it. Definitely not something I could say about fluon. Talc makes it very easy to see which spots are missed. It was just an observation over a few hours and this morning. I will update this if they break out through talc too. My next option would be a moat. I used 91% alcohol from local target, talcum from amazon, and fan brush from amazon. A little goes a long way ( I had to dump 50% of the it). I think this talc bottle could last me forever.

 

Items:
Alcohol 

Talcum

Brush

[OiledOlives]

I definitely agree. Once I finish the small fluon vial I got from THA, I'm moving back to talcum powder. It makes the outworld smell nicer as well.
List of species that fluon has failed for me:
Crematogaster lineolata

Crematogaster cerasi
Camponotus floridanus

Monomorium minimum

[m99]

Oh good, that makes me feel better about never having bought a bottle of fluon yet. I started out with talcum and haven't had any escapes yet, but I assumed some day I'd be forced to use fluon by a tricky species. I'd love to never have to, just for the sake of having a more natural solution available.

 

Since baby powder is corn starch these days, I bought a little medicine-sized bottle of laboratory grade talc and still have barely made a dent in it, I imagine it'll last for years. 

 

Also, I haven't re-talced my main tetramorium mini hearth since I moved them in last year, and it's still doing totally fine. Though they're not escape artists and my apartment isn't usually very steamy, I've been surprised at its longevity as an effective barrier. The only real damage it's sustained over the months has been from my own clumsy fingers.

Edited by m99, May 24 2022 - 11:22 AM.

[dspdrew]

I rarely have problems with ants getting across Fluon. The reason I like Fluon is because it can continue working for months, and only starts to fail when it gets dirty. It doesn't matter how many ants try to cross it, whereas with talc, each time they try, the knock a little of it off, until eventually it's mostly gone.

 

Also, any barrier works much better on the underside of a horizontal surface. If you have an opening in a lid, and it's suitable for adding a slippery barrier, it's a lot more effective that way, and it also doesn't look ridiculous, like many people's formicariums do with stuff smeared all over the sides.

 

Luckily I still have a giant bottle of it.

[aznphenom]

I rarely have problems with ants getting across Fluon. The reason I like Fluon is because it can continue working for months, and only starts to fail when it gets dirty. It doesn't matter how many ants try to cross it, whereas with talc, each time they try, the knock a little of it off, until eventually it's mostly gone.

 

Also, any barrier works much better on the underside of a horizontal surface. If you have an opening in a lid, and it's suitable for adding a slippery barrier, it's a lot more effective that way, and it also doesn't look ridiculous, like many people's formicariums do with stuff smeared all over the sides.

 

Luckily I still have a giant bottle of it.

Yeah. Like I said, its probably user error. I do believe its the applicator that could be a big problem and believe have fluon where I can pour into a cup so I can use a brush would probably solve me problem. But until someone starts selling fluon again, I am forced to use talc

[FloridaAnts]

I definitely agree. Once I finish the small fluon vial I got from THA, I'm moving back to talcum powder. It makes the outworld smell nicer as well.
List of species that fluon has failed for me:
Crematogaster lineolata
Crematogaster cerasi
Camponotus floridanus
Monomorium minimum

It works for floridanus? For a few days… My new colony fails to cross it 70% of the time.(It is however on the lip of the setup)To solve that problem, they start what looks like the ants congregating to form a border-crossing party.(Its on the lip) If only I had a border patrol…

To say the least, it works for the majority. When I use tweezers, I apply fluon to them, and the C. Floridanus fall halfway up. I am experiencing such good rates is probably due to the fact the colony is in its beginning stages(300 workers) and that the ants that are at attack speed are probably much less careful climbing smooth surfaces.

My only problem with talcum powder is it falls off the more you move your setups.(Maybe I apply wrong)I like to photograph my ants, so I usually move my setups to put them on a white background. I will stick to having a few ants escape when I open the lid again, as I don’t want to waste my current fluon and I like the look. Maybe I’ll add a little talcum powder for smell though…

Edited by FloridaAnts, May 24 2022 - 12:50 PM.

[OiledOlives]

I have a small 1.5-2000 worker colony in a Nucleus formicarium from THA. I applied another fluon barrier on an untouched part of the foraging area just a couple days ago and every time I see them there are at least 10 workers at the lid. As you can imagine, this makes it quite difficult to feed and clean. Another problem with fluon is that it does not work as well when reapplied in the same spot. With talcum powder, you can easily wipe off the preexisting barrier and apply a new one. 

Edited by OiledOlives, May 24 2022 - 1:32 PM.

[FloridaAnts]

Yea, it does take scrubbing and soaking to fully get the fluon off. Usually, there is 1-3 ants on the lid of my outworld, but the lids slides to come off so they get knocked off.

[T.C.]

Seems alot of people have forgot about vegetable oil. Just a extreme thin coat so it don't run and it contains them for months.

[OiledOlives]

Oil is one of the worst barriers. I used olive oil to contain my ants for years and I can say with confidence that oil is not effective. It is a repellent, not an actual barrier that makes them slip. With larger colonies, the ants would just walk out without any difficulty. I used olive oil as a barrier for my 1k worker Crematogaster cerasi for a month and when I moved them out of their setup, I found hundreds of workers in test tubes. Absolutely horrible barrier and I'll never use it again.

[aznphenom]

Journal published about talcum being superior to Fluon

 

TLDR:
100% escape prevention for Monomorium intrudens and Solenopsis invicta is obtainable with 2-3 microns Talc powder with any ethanol concentration (20%+). Other microns sizes prevented solenopsis but not monomorium. Fluon of 20%+ concentration prevented solenopsis but Fluon could not prevent monomorium from espcaping in any of the experiments. 

 

The main reason why Talc is so effective is because the particles detached from the surface of the container and adhere to the ant arolium (toes), which makes climbing more difficult. 

Edited by aznphenom, May 25 2022 - 11:18 AM.

[T.C.]

Oil is one of the worst barriers. I used olive oil to contain my ants for years and I can say with confidence that oil is not effective. It is a repellent, not an actual barrier that makes them slip. With larger colonies, the ants would just walk out without any difficulty. I used olive oil as a barrier for my 1k worker Crematogaster cerasi for a month and when I moved them out of their setup, I found hundreds of workers in test tubes. Absolutely horrible barrier and I'll never use it again.

Can't say I have had the same experience. I have a colony of camponotus sp. that has a few hundred workers and they all slip everytime.

[OiledOlives]

 

Oil is one of the worst barriers. I used olive oil to contain my ants for years and I can say with confidence that oil is not effective. It is a repellent, not an actual barrier that makes them slip. With larger colonies, the ants would just walk out without any difficulty. I used olive oil as a barrier for my 1k worker Crematogaster cerasi for a month and when I moved them out of their setup, I found hundreds of workers in test tubes. Absolutely horrible barrier and I'll never use it again.

Can't say I have had the same experience. I have a colony of camponotus sp. that has a few hundred workers and they all slip everytime.

 

I used to think it would work. I didn't see workers trying to climb over the barrier, so I just assumed it was making them slip.
Some colonies I had that just walked out on an olive oil barrier:
Aphaenogaster rudis 300w

Monomorium minimum 200w

Crematogaster cerasi 1kw

Tapinoma sessile 200w

Camponotus floridanus 10w
Vollenhovia emeryi 150w

Vollenhovia emeryi 1kw

Vollenhovia emeryi 200w

Strumigenys sp. 10w

 

These are not even all of the ants I had that walked straight over it. It was a while ago since I stopped using that [censored] barrier in favor of fluon and talcum powder. The only ants I had it work on was a tiny 40 worker colony of Camponotus chromaiodes.

[aznphenom]

 

Oil is one of the worst barriers. I used olive oil to contain my ants for years and I can say with confidence that oil is not effective. It is a repellent, not an actual barrier that makes them slip. With larger colonies, the ants would just walk out without any difficulty. I used olive oil as a barrier for my 1k worker Crematogaster cerasi for a month and when I moved them out of their setup, I found hundreds of workers in test tubes. Absolutely horrible barrier and I'll never use it again.

Can't say I have had the same experience. I have a colony of camponotus sp. that has a few hundred workers and they all slip everytime.

 

Seems like anything can contain camponotus. Having smaller species is a true test to your barriers. Maybe its a weight thing.

[T.C.]

I'm mainly a lid person. So usually I kerp smaller species in those so I can't really speak on that. I do know olive oil contains my lasius sp. well.

[aznphenom]

I'm mainly a lid person. So usually I kerp smaller species in those so I can't really speak on that. I do know olive oil contains my lasius sp. well.

I have non native species so I have to have as many escape preventions as possible. Plus I don't trust ANYTHING to do open lid nests with any species. I've woken up from my sleep, having a nightmare of my Pogonomyrmex escaping and stinging me to death

[FloridaAnts]

I have had the same experience. I am honestly scared of my Floridanus escaping… I once kept a small colony of these, and I used fluon… I woke up the next day, the colony was gone, workers all over. I eventually found they left my house, so now I make sure the colony of these I just received always has a closed setup.

I probably need to use a barrier for my Odontomachus, as the males can climb, and it is very annoying to see them on the lid.

[FloridaAnts]

Oil is one of the worst barriers. I used olive oil to contain my ants for years and I can say with confidence that oil is not effective. It is a repellent, not an actual barrier that makes them slip. With larger colonies, the ants would just walk out without any difficulty. I used olive oil as a barrier for my 1k worker Crematogaster cerasi for a month and when I moved them out of their setup, I found hundreds of workers in test tubes. Absolutely horrible barrier and I'll never use it again.

Can't say I have had the same experience. I have a colony of camponotus sp. that has a few hundred workers and they all slip everytime.

Seems like anything can contain camponotus. Having smaller species is a true test to your barriers. Maybe its a weight thing.

No, not my Camponotus Floridanus. I swear they fake fall the first few hours so you gain trust in the barrier, until you open the lid and they rush out at you. I should switch to Talc when I get a new setup.

[aznphenom]

I have had the same experience. I am honestly scared of my Floridanus escaping… I once kept a small colony of these, and I used fluon… I woke up the next day, the colony was gone, workers all over. I eventually found they left my house, so now I make sure the colony of these I just received always has a closed setup.

I probably need to use a barrier for my Odontomachus, as the males can climb, and it is very annoying to see them on the lid.

I was going to give fluon a try again because maybe I was doing something wrong, maybe the fluon went back, maybe I shook it too much. But then I found the journal yesterday and I am going to stick with Talc. I don't have the luxury of taking chances with my non natives.

Edited by aznphenom, May 26 2022 - 6:38 AM.

[FloridaAnts]

With permits(Atta texana?), definitely not. I think the USDA would be after you.

Also, can your male Odontomachus climb? My species is ruginodis, and the males climb.

Edited by FloridaAnts, May 26 2022 - 6:43 AM.