33 replies to this topic

[Zeiss]

On a more serious note; keeping ants in captivity is not natural, so the argument that the living insects have no route of escape does not make sense to me, as we are already in an unnatural environment to begin with.  

 

As for the argument that the feeder insects will take a long time to die: yes.  Insects take a much longer time to cease bodily function and it's fairly hard to tell when an insect is dead and not just bodily movements based upon left over synapses firing.  For all we know, they could still be alive after we "kill" them ourselves to then drop into the formicaria.  Who is to say us squishing, stabbing, tearing, etc. prior to feeding is more humane than giving an insect to our colonies to kill.

 

We can also argue that it is beneficial to give our colonies (the mature ones that can handle it) live arthropod feeders as it permits our ants to use their natural abilities to hunt something and not have bored foragers standing still in the outworld, unable to explore and forage.  

 

Feeding live prey to snakes being bad is not widely frowned upon in the hobby and mainly a minority.  That is a single .com opinion and does not represent a majority in the hobby.  Anecdotally, I have never seen reptile owners say it's inhumane to feed live to their animals at the several massive shows I've been to, the hundreds of people I've met, and stores I frequent for supplies.  Yes, there is a chance that your animal could be harmed in a live feeding and that is a risk.  However, it does not often happen when your animal has normal instincts to subdue its prey.  It's also the responsibility of the owner to monitor their animals during feeding and make sure no injuries to their pets occur.

 

Regarding the possible introduction of mites from a living insect.  I don't see how this is relevant since mites can be introduced through a plethora of ways, or even just show up on their own.  Dead insects can also carry mites just the same.

 

Continuing the topic on nociception and your interpretation that the flies experience "pain" as more developed organisms do— that just sounds like any living thing trying to avoid things that can cause harm to the body and protect already damaged portions of oneself.  This is a logical thing to do for most organisms and not necessarily what we consider to be "pain."  Insects have been proven to be able to learn to avoid certain substances, such as pesticides, so they don't ingest or get hurt by some other means.  Again, this doesn't necessarily mean they're experiencing "pain" on the scale we do.  I started reading the full journal article, not just the magazine writing you linked.  I will finish it at some point and if I remember, come back and share my interpretation.

 

While your opinion is not inherently wrong and you are allowed to have it, this feels like you are trying to push your moral opinion upon the community when there is not enough scientific research done to even prove your point.  I am going to continue to not care about how insects are fed to insects as based on the evidence gathered so far throughout history: insects are incapable of conceiving "pain" like we do due to the simplicity of their nervous system compared to ours.  There is also nothing wrong at all with how you choose to feed your colonies.  I personally pre-kill crickets and larger insects prior to giving them to a colony because it makes it easier for the ants to take down since I don't really keep colonies to huge mature numbers, not because it's immoral to feed live.  The feeder is still twitching and moving around slightly most of the time anyways.  Like I said above, insects take a while to die and who knows if it's really more humane to incapacitate one before feeding it off.

 

A problem us humans often have is putting human traits as such onto things that are not human.  I do not believe this thread will lead to anyone changing their own feelings on the matter as it has come up before in the past and has always never come to a conclusion.  

Edited by Zeiss, January 3 2022 - 11:12 PM.

[JCRHJM]

This is definitely complicated issue, 

I do think live feeding is okay in circumstances that prey is appropriately sized and the colony has the means to dispatch it quickly without any risk to the ants themselves.

I myself do feed live crickets and mealworms on occasion to my rhytidoponera and myrmecia as both species are natural hunters with stings to end it quickly, I also find it entertaining to see my ants exhibit hunting behaviour. 

In OPs case I feel using tarantulas and scorpions is distasteful as the owner probably wanted to see the animals fight each other and likely resulted in extended suffering for the prey and danger to the ants. 

Edited by JCRHJM, January 4 2022 - 12:21 AM.

[ANTdrew]

Dead insects that have been frozen then flash boiled do not carry mites. Grain mites LOVE fruit fly cultures. It is kind of fun watching colonies hunt fruit flies, but grain mite infestations are not fun in the extreme. To each his own though.

[11.11.00]

On a more serious note; keeping ants in captivity is not natural, so the argument that the living insects have no route of escape does not make sense to me, as we are already in an unnatural environment to begin with.  

 

As for the argument that the feeder insects will take a long time to die: yes.  Insects take a much longer time to cease bodily function and it's fairly hard to tell when an insect is dead and not just bodily movements based upon left over synapses firing.  For all we know, they could still be alive after we "kill" them ourselves to then drop into the formicaria.  Who is to say us squishing, stabbing, tearing, etc. prior to feeding is more humane than giving an insect to our colonies to kill.

 

We can also argue that it is beneficial to give our colonies (the mature ones that can handle it) live arthropod feeders as it permits our ants to use their natural abilities to hunt something and not have bored foragers standing still in the outworld, unable to explore and forage.  

 

Feeding live prey to snakes being bad is not widely frowned upon in the hobby and mainly a minority.  That is a single .com opinion and does not represent a majority in the hobby.  Anecdotally, I have never seen reptile owners say it's inhumane to feed live to their animals at the several massive shows I've been to, the hundreds of people I've met, and stores I frequent for supplies.  Yes, there is a chance that your animal could be harmed in a live feeding and that is a risk.  However, it does not often happen when your animal has normal instincts to subdue its prey.  It's also the responsibility of the owner to monitor their animals during feeding and make sure no injuries to their pets occur.

 

Regarding the possible introduction of mites from a living insect.  I don't see how this is relevant since mites can be introduced through a plethora of ways, or even just show up on their own.  Dead insects can also carry mites just the same.

 

Continuing the topic on nociception and your interpretation that the flies experience "pain" as more developed organisms do— that just sounds like any living thing trying to avoid things that can cause harm to the body and protect already damaged portions of oneself.  This is a logical thing to do for most organisms and not necessarily what we consider to be "pain."  Insects have been proven to be able to learn to avoid certain substances, such as pesticides, so they don't ingest or get hurt by some other means.  Again, this doesn't necessarily mean they're experiencing "pain" on the scale we do.  I started reading the full journal article, not just the magazine writing you linked.  I will finish it at some point and if I remember, come back and share my interpretation.

 

While your opinion is not inherently wrong and you are allowed to have it, this feels like you are trying to push your moral opinion upon the community when there is not enough scientific research done to even prove your point.  I am going to continue to not care about how insects are fed to insects as based on the evidence gathered so far throughout history: insects are incapable of conceiving "pain" like we do due to the simplicity of their nervous system compared to ours.  There is also nothing wrong at all with how you choose to feed your colonies.  I personally pre-kill crickets and larger insects prior to giving them to a colony because it makes it easier for the ants to take down since I don't really keep colonies to huge mature numbers, not because it's immoral to feed live.  The feeder is still twitching and moving around slightly most of the time anyways.  Like I said above, insects take a while to die and who knows if it's really more humane to incapacitate one before feeding it off.

 

A problem us humans often have is putting human traits as such onto things that are not human.  I do not believe this thread will lead to anyone changing their own feelings on the matter as it has come up before in the past and has always never come to a conclusion.  

If I came off as too confrontational, I do apologize for that and I respect your opinion. However, I do want to correct you on your point of live feeding being seen as unacceptable by most of the hobby. I have to admit it does get grey as the consensus does accept live feeding when it is absolutely necessary, but from the hundreds of people I talked to about reptiles, that should be the limit as well as live feeding mice being downright illegal in some european countries.  Here are threads that reflect my consensus (1)(2)(3)(4)(5). 

 

As for trapping an animal, personally, I think it is fine if it is well cared for which is different from a trapped animal facing certain death or even bad care but as you said, this could just be my personal views. However, I do believe this line of thinking is dangerous because it would logically mean that a captive animal facing good or bad care is morally equivalent. 

Edited by 11.11.00, January 4 2022 - 12:18 PM.

[PaigeX]

 

 

Personally I feel like this is a non-issue, bugs are bugs. It's holds much less weight than live-feeding mice to snakes or feeding feeder-fish to turtles. In the end, do as you like, if you feel it's cruel, then don't do it.

 

It's up to you how you feed your ants. 

Why would you think it holds less weight? Just curious. 

Especially given that like vertebrates, bugs can also feel pain

 

For one, mice and fish are much more evolutionarily developed than the drosophila experimented on in the article you quoted, their nervous systems are far more complex. This of course means that the "pain" drosophila feel when "wounded" is likely extremely different from the sensation of pain that you and I would feel. The average fruit fly has 200,000 brain cells, the average human has 86 billion. 

 

Secondly, they are literally bugs, what you would classify as pain is likely nociception, the avoidance of harmful factors. This is a reflex, not a feeling.

 

Lastly, at the risk of sounding speciest, to me (I can't speak for everyone), I literally do not care if a fruit fly suffers for 20 seconds while being hunted, it happens billions of times per day all around the world. I eat meat, I acknowledge that in order to eat meat, an animal is executed (quite painfully) in a slaughterhouse somewhere.

 

 

There is a study that shows a fly leg that got hurt. it healed but the fly still experienced long time pain from the aftermath. They scientifically came to the conclusion that they can feel pain and long after the wound had healed. It was something that proved that bugs can feel pain and long-term pain at that. 
Also, the way we keep our ants is not natural, fair enough it happens in the wild but with a control settings the bug is not already dead or dying. Its healthy, well alive and is placed in a box that it can not run away from the ants as it would in the wild. Bugs nervous system also still functions and moves way after what we consider the insect to be dead. Still responding to touch and pain.  

EDIT: I just saw the 2nd page of the thread and saw what i said has already been said. sorry for the repost.

Edited by PaigeX, January 4 2022 - 9:50 AM.

[Zeiss]

If I came off as too confrontational, I do apologize for that and I respect your opinion. However, I do want to correct you on your point of live feeding being seen as unacceptable by most of the hobby. I have to admit it does get grey as the consensus does accept live feeding when it is absolutely necessary, but from the hundreds of people I talked to about reptiles, that should be the limit. Here are threads that reflect my consensus (1)(2)(3)(4).

As for trapping an animal, personally, I think it is fine if it is well cared for which is different from a trapped animal facing certain death or even bad care but as you said, this could just be my personal views. However, I do believe this line of thinking is dangerous because it would logically mean that a captive animal facing good or bad care is morally equivalent. 

You did not come off as confrontational.  If anything, I did with my sarcasm in prior posts.  

 

I do think this entire thread is personal views with moral ambiguity thrown in the mix so it's practically impossible for any conclusions to be drawn by both parties except their own.

[Idontexist]

Oh no, feeding ant colonies living things they could come across in the wild, what a terrible thing.

I get the same stuff from some people when they figure out I feed my snake live mice.

is that a flex or something?

Yes. Absolutely.

bits just vegans crying on your snakes. But this. Is feeding a prey item that is too large to a colony. He said 100 workers died. Smh but that seems dumb

[Manitobant]

Live feeding is okay in my opinion. However, feeding a huge live scorpion or tarantula for views is where i cross the line. Its just completely unnecessary when you have feeders.

[CheetoLord02]

If you're asking me, this is about responsibility, not cruelty. It is irresponsible to throw a live adult tarantula into your ant setups. I won't even call it "feeding" because there was absolutely no chance the ants would be able to kill and eat the spider. This is made even worse when you consider that the offender is not only an influential member of the community, but also the owner of an online storefront that is responsible for distributing ants to inexperienced community members. Doing something like this is unnecessary and is clearly nothing more than a grab for views. I don't want to argue any morals since I personally support live feedings, as long as you're responsible about it. Only offer prey your ants can quickly and effectively kill. This is honestly in the same ballpark as throwing a live snake or squirrel or something into an ant setup. There is no way that you could justify that, and personally I cannot justify the tarantula either, as like I said there is no way the ants could have subdued and killed the larger animal. It's just a show of irresponsibility, as not only an antkeeper but as an influential member of the community as a whole.

[OiledOlives]

Live feeding is sometimes necessary, such as when feeding specialists, such as Strumigenys and collembolans. To me, whether live feeding is cruel or not depends on what you are feeding. After all, not many people are going to take the time and effort to prekill hundreds of fruit flies by hand (freezing is an option, but I wouldn't freeze a healthy ff culture).

[PaigeX]

Live feeding is sometimes necessary, such as when feeding specialists, such as Strumigenys and collembolans. To me, whether live feeding is cruel or not depends on what you are feeding. After all, not many people are going to take the time and effort to prekill hundreds of fruit flies by hand (freezing is an option, but I wouldn't freeze a healthy ff culture).

I'm with this. To me I feel the bigger feeders like full grown roaches/crickets/mealworms need to be pre-killed but small ones like fruit flies or baby/pin head feeders that die so quick don't need to be. Its also a waste of time trying to.

 

 

I think this topic is more on the lines of:

Are you ok watching an insect struggle to death?

And do you think its morally fine or not.

Many opinions arise from these two Questions. And depending on the person either question is correct or wrong.

[attagarrett]

I'll address the situation since the OP originated about me. 

After reading everyone's comments there is no clear consensus on what is right and wrong. However, I will admit it was irresponsible of me to offer live feedings of a tarantula and a scorpion. I have since removed the videos and have not done something of that caliber since. I have to agree with Cheeto on this one and that behavior is unacceptable and should be avoided for merely the shock and aw factor which in turns achieves more views. While in my own defense it was more of to see what would happen for say if they encountered these organisms in the wild. Both of those organisms live hand and hand with ants, so It was more or less an experiment to see what would happen if the ants encountered them in the wild. The tarantula was unharmed and taken out of the outworld, and the scorpion was taken down fairly quick due to it being a fresh molt with a weak exoskeleton. I am sorry if these videos brought ill feelings towards me or shed a negative light on the hobby as a whole. As Cheeto said I should use the platform I have for good such as educating new and fellow keepers instead of trying to get views. The incidences in question were nearly a year ago, and I have not done anything like that since, matter of fact I did not even remember the videos were still up. Once again my apologies for the wrong doing. Happy New Years everyone and Good luck this season!

[NicholasP]

If you're asking me, this is about responsibility, not cruelty. It is irresponsible to throw a live adult tarantula into your ant setups. I won't even call it "feeding" because there was absolutely no chance the ants would be able to kill and eat the spider. This is made even worse when you consider that the offender is not only an influential member of the community, but also the owner of an online storefront that is responsible for distributing ants to inexperienced community members. Doing something like this is unnecessary and is clearly nothing more than a grab for views. I don't want to argue any morals since I personally support live feedings, as long as you're responsible about it. Only offer prey your ants can quickly and effectively kill. This is honestly in the same ballpark as throwing a live snake or squirrel or something into an ant setup. There is no way that you could justify that, and personally I cannot justify the tarantula either, as like I said there is no way the ants could have subdued and killed the larger animal. It's just a show of irresponsibility, as not only an antkeeper but as an influential member of the community as a whole.

I personally couldn't have said it better than what you typed Cheeto even if I tried.

[NicholasP]

I personally support live feedings. Some of my ants refuse to take any protein source unless it moves. Then there's my regular ants that have a worsened feeding response when the prey is not alive. Personally I'd say it's the natural circle of life. Vegetables grow and crickets come along and eat them, the crickets then are eaten by the ants, and the ants eaten by praying mantis's and after that usually a snake or some form of army ant comes along and eats the mantis. This is the circle that happens in the wild. There's some other benefits of live feeding too. If you ever have to release your ant colony into the wild because no one wants it or you don't have the room or money anymore your ants have a much higher chance of knowing how to hunt in the wild. Knowing how to hunt is one of the biggest things for an ant colony to survive out in the world. Humans also had to hunt thousands of years ago as hunter-gatherers. The group that supports non living prey to be fed have valid reasons too. It's cruel for the prey to slowly die. But, if you feed responsibly like Cheeto said where you don't feed a prey item that would take a long time to kill then the idea of non living prey is somewhat of a not worth thing to do. Then though, you'd have to run the risk of the prey item having a disease, parasite, or mites. My defense against that problem is that the chances of that happening are very slim. To this day after almost 2 years of antkeeping I've never had a prey item that made my ants get a disease or even get grain mites. Even when I fed fruit flies. This is my opinion on this subject. I am open to other's opinions though.

Edited by NicholasP, January 5 2022 - 3:47 PM.