43 replies to this topic

[futurebird]

I think you may be correct GreekAnts. I do find questions about what we really mean by "invasive" interesting. For example is the Mustang "invasive" (most people say no, they are lovely wild horses... but they were introduced!)

 

But I don't know if this thread is the environment for a nuanced conversation. 

 

And we have to remember that most people think of ants only as pests.  To the degree that people will try to kill helpful species that are keeping real pests under control simply for being in their yard. I've been trying to open some minds on this front and have won over my building's gardner. 

[GreekAnts]

I think you may be correct GreekAnts. I do find questions about what we really mean by "invasive" interesting. For example is the Mustang "invasive" (most people say no, they are lovely wild horses... but they were introduced!)

 

But I don't know if this thread is the environment for a nuanced conversation. 

 

And we have to remember that most people think of ants only as pests.  To the degree that people will try to kill helpful species that are keeping real pests under control simply for being in their yard. I've been trying to open some minds on this front and have won over my building's gardner. 

that's true, most people don't care for the ants and probably try to kill them,I want to make people interested too and explain them that ants are important and even interesting and facinating, but the most people that I have tried to talk to about ants don't care or thing I am nuts..(my father for example think I went nuts). I think most people only care about animals that they can take advantage of them and gain something (for example animals that we use for food or for their milk or eggs etc) and the others are just "useless" or people don't care about them at all... And like you said some animals that are invasive to a area, are left there because people think they are cute and they can live anywhere.. one animal I can think for this example is red slider turtle, I can see them everywhere globally and here in Greece people just throw them in the wild ,in ponds etc and the result is native turtles suffer and their population is declining.. 

Edited by GreekAnts, August 8 2021 - 7:05 AM.

[Domagoj]

Obvious troll is obvious, but anyway here it goes.

It's not even just about the exotic ant species itself that could cause trouble if released or escapes into the wild. There could be various pathogens such as bacteria, viruses or even parasites that are introduced along with the ants and those can be the ones that wreak havoc on local wildlife.

OP, you asked for an example, well, here's one of complex interaction and a chain of events that led to a global problem which could very well impact human lives: in 1960s the European honey bee (Apis mellifera) was imported to the Philippines where it came into contact with local population of A. cerana (Asian honey bee). Unfortunately, the local population was a host to Varroa destructor, a parasite mite which was, until that time, endemic to Asian bees. The mite jumped to European bees which had no defensive mechanism against the mite and V. destructor quickly started to spread. From Philippines, the infected European bee was exported all across the world, spreading the mite as well. Today, only 60 years after the jump, V. destructor is a global problem that causes countless bee colonies to die.

 

Your position is astonishingly selfish, self centered and quite frankly disturbing. You are willing to potentially cause irreparable harm to the ecosystem just because none of the hundreds of ant species that are local to you are enough to satisfy you.

[GreekAnts]

Obvious troll is obvious, but anyway here it goes.

It's not even just about the exotic ant species itself that could cause trouble if released or escapes into the wild. There could be various pathogens such as bacteria, viruses or even parasites that are introduced along with the ants and those can be the ones that wreak havoc on local wildlife.

OP, you asked for an example, well, here's one of complex interaction and a chain of events that led to a global problem which could very well impact human lives: in 1960s the European honey bee (Apis mellifera) was imported to the Philippines where it came into contact with local population of A. cerana (Asian honey bee). Unfortunately, the local population was a host to Varroa destructor, a parasite mite which was, until that time, endemic to Asian bees. The mite jumped to European bees which had no defensive mechanism against the mite and V. destructor quickly started to spread. From Philippines, the infected European bee was exported all across the world, spreading the mite as well. Today, only 60 years after the jump, V. destructor is a global problem that causes countless bee colonies to die.

 

Your position is astonishingly selfish, self centered and quite frankly disturbing. You are willing to potentially cause irreparable harm to the ecosystem just because none of the hundreds of ant species that are local to you are enough to satisfy you.

Well said!

[Tyr_Ants]

ok no offense man and I'm not tryna be mean or nothin but i was on your side at first but youre starting to sound a little crazy i mean lets not pretend the ecoystem isn't delicate dude like come on

 Has there ever been a case when the whole system was destroyed because of a couple of imported species? And have the people died out in that area?

So your saying people have to die just so an invasive ant species can be deemed horrible and destructive??

[Max_Connor]

 

In that case, let's just burn everything that we don't absolutely need for no reason because humans are definitely the only thing that's important and we're the only ones with a right to live on this earth.

 

 

Well intentionally destructing everything is a bad thing to do (as it has no point and shows your ignorance), but not intentionally...

 

And yeah, humans are the most important thing according to humans themselves - it is natural.

And there's no such thing as having rights to live on this earth - every species can loose the evolution game and disappear, it's not our problem - we can't even solve our own human problems, so caring about the environment is not really caring about the planet and life - it's supposed to be caring about ourselves in the first place.

[Max_Connor]

Obvious troll is obvious, but anyway here it goes.

It's not even just about the exotic ant species itself that could cause trouble if released or escapes into the wild. There could be various pathogens such as bacteria, viruses or even parasites that are introduced along with the ants and those can be the ones that wreak havoc on local wildlife.

OP, you asked for an example, well, here's one of complex interaction and a chain of events that led to a global problem which could very well impact human lives: in 1960s the European honey bee (Apis mellifera) was imported to the Philippines where it came into contact with local population of A. cerana (Asian honey bee). Unfortunately, the local population was a host to Varroa destructor, a parasite mite which was, until that time, endemic to Asian bees. The mite jumped to European bees which had no defensive mechanism against the mite and V. destructor quickly started to spread. From Philippines, the infected European bee was exported all across the world, spreading the mite as well. Today, only 60 years after the jump, V. destructor is a global problem that causes countless bee colonies to die.

 

Your position is astonishingly selfish, self centered and quite frankly disturbing. You are willing to potentially cause irreparable harm to the ecosystem just because none of the hundreds of ant species that are local to you are enough to satisfy you.

 

Well, trolling is still working, and I wanted to sparkle some debate here

I agree with your point.

But I don't have hundreds of native species in my area - only some dozens, and not all of them are easily kept at home.

[SYUTEO]

 

 

 

ok no offense man and I'm not tryna be mean or nothin but i was on your side at first but youre starting to sound a little crazy i mean lets not pretend the ecoystem isn't delicate dude like come on 

 

 

 Has there ever been a case when the whole system was destroyed because of a couple of imported species? And have the people died out in that area? 

 

Yellow crazy ants almost wiped out the entire population of red crabs on Christmas island.

[NoveltyAntsYT]

In my opinion beginners should never keep invasive ants or even the slightly more experienced, although your exotic ants will most likely be harmless to your ecosystem, the risk of them becoming invasive (or more successful as invaders) is too high. The expert ant keepers (in my opinion) should even consider keeping exotic ants. Like NickAnter said, it is not all just human faults (releasing them/letting them escape) it can also be caused other problems outside of our control. Honestly I think only people who are taking on ant keeping as a career (myrmecology) with licenses should be keeping exotic ants. Now that being said, I think if an invasive species is established in your area and fits into the ecosystem, you can consider keeping them. These species aren't too common and obviously that species will still change the ecosystem, (predetor/prey) species like this are not the same as ants like lets say, fire ants, which are "destroying" many species (ants and other organisms). You should of course take caution with laws and if the exotic/invasive species is really harming the ecosystem in a negative way (meaning harming the populations significantly). Keep in mind this is just my opinion and you are welcome to have your own opinion(s).

[Domagoj]

Well intentionally destructing everything is a bad thing to do (as it has no point and shows your ignorance), but not intentionally...

 
Destroying everything due to negligence is also a bad thing. Especially when you have been warned about the risks.
 

But I don't have hundreds of native species in my area - only some dozens, and not all of them are easily kept at home.

 
Sounds like you'd have your hands full caring for those. Consider it a challenge to yourself to successfully keep a hard to keep local species.

[Kaelwizard]

 

 

In that case, let's just burn everything that we don't absolutely need for no reason because humans are definitely the only thing that's important and we're the only ones with a right to live on this earth.

 

 

Well intentionally destructing everything is a bad thing to do (as it has no point and shows your ignorance), but not intentionally...

 

And yeah, humans are the most important thing according to humans themselves - it is natural.

And there's no such thing as having rights to live on this earth - every species can loose the evolution game and disappear, it's not our problem - we can't even solve our own human problems, so caring about the environment is not really caring about the planet and life - it's supposed to be caring about ourselves in the first place.

 

1) Saying that spreading potentially invasive is acceptable if it isn't intentional is comparable to saying manslaughter is excusable because there was no intent to kill (I don't mean that it is an equal crime, it is not, but it is somewhat similar).

 

2) The point about the evolutionary game just shows how ignorant you are. Humans accidentally (or intentionally) spreading a species somewhere it shouldn't be is a problem. In my mind, if that species then wipes out native species in that area, that is no longer a matter of natural selection. It would be our fault, our mistake, so we should try to fix it. On the other hand, if that species spread there without "help" from humans I don't see that as much of a problem as it occurred naturally (though if it was due to something like climate change you may be able to argue that humans are somewhat responsible). I do understand your argument, however, in that a species has lost the evolutionary game if they are unable to save themselves from human activity or an invasive species, but I stand by my opinion.

[SleepyAsianAnter]

 

And there's no such thing as having rights to live on this earth - every species can loose the evolution game and disappear, it's not our problem

[Tyr_Ants]

Obvious troll is obvious, but anyway here it goes.
It's not even just about the exotic ant species itself that could cause trouble if released or escapes into the wild. There could be various pathogens such as bacteria, viruses or even parasites that are introduced along with the ants and those can be the ones that wreak havoc on local wildlife.
OP, you asked for an example, well, here's one of complex interaction and a chain of events that led to a global problem which could very well impact human lives: in 1960s the European honey bee (Apis mellifera) was imported to the Philippines where it came into contact with local population of A. cerana (Asian honey bee). Unfortunately, the local population was a host to Varroa destructor, a parasite mite which was, until that time, endemic to Asian bees. The mite jumped to European bees which had no defensive mechanism against the mite and V. destructor quickly started to spread. From Philippines, the infected European bee was exported all across the world, spreading the mite as well. Today, only 60 years after the jump, V. destructor is a global problem that causes countless bee colonies to die.
 
Your position is astonishingly selfish, self centered and quite frankly disturbing. You are willing to potentially cause irreparable harm to the ecosystem just because none of the hundreds of ant species that are local to you are enough to satisfy you.

 
Well, trolling is still working, and I wanted to sparkle some debate here
I agree with your point.
But I don't have hundreds of native species in my area - only some dozens, and not all of them are easily kept at home.

really shows how selfish you are that you would put native animals and insects in danger only for your selfish goals by using your own feelings to justify them along with ignorant rhetoric, people shouldn't take you seriously if all you do in here is start controversial threads for the sake of "trolling".

[gcsnelling]

Time to let the troll die, let's quit feeding it.

[zA-Z0-9]

Time to let the troll die, let's quit feeding it.

i concur

[Antkeeper01]

In my opinion beginners should never keep invasive ants or even the slightly more experienced, although your exotic ants will most likely be harmless to your ecosystem, the risk of them becoming invasive (or more successful as invaders) is too high. The expert ant keepers (in my opinion) should even consider keeping exotic ants. Like NickAnter said, it is not all just human faults (releasing them/letting them escape) it can also be caused other problems outside of our control. Honestly I think only people who are taking on ant keeping as a career (myrmecology) with licenses should be keeping exotic ants. Now that being said, I think if an invasive species is established in your area and fits into the ecosystem, you can consider keeping them. These species aren't too common and obviously that species will still change the ecosystem, (predetor/prey) species like this are not the same as ants like lets say, fire ants, which are "destroying" many species (ants and other organisms). You should of course take caution with laws and if the exotic/invasive species is really harming the ecosystem in a negative way (meaning harming the populations significantly). Keep in mind this is just my opinion and you are welcome to have your own opinion(s).

ummmm T. immigrans???

[Max_Connor]

 

1) Saying that spreading potentially invasive is acceptable if it isn't intentional is comparable to saying manslaughter is excusable because there was no intent to kill (I don't mean that it is an equal crime, it is not, but it is somewhat similar).

 

2) The point about the evolutionary game just shows how ignorant you are. Humans accidentally (or intentionally) spreading a species somewhere it shouldn't be is a problem. In my mind, if that species then wipes out native species in that area, that is no longer a matter of natural selection. It would be our fault, our mistake, so we should try to fix it. On the other hand, if that species spread there without "help" from humans I don't see that as much of a problem as it occurred naturally (though if it was due to something like climate change you may be able to argue that humans are somewhat responsible). I do understand your argument, however, in that a species has lost the evolutionary game if they are unable to save themselves from human activity or an invasive species, but I stand by my opinion.

 

 

1) Ok, I agree with your first point, I was joking.

 

2) You're talking about humans as of some unnatural thing that came out of nowhere and is responsible for everything that is happening on this planet...

Well humans are also part of nature - we're not aliens who invaded the earth, we also are a part of natural selection, part of evolution on this planet.

If we can do what other living beings can't - doesn't mean we are not part of nature and that spreading invasive species is also not part of natural selection. Natural selection created humans - humans spread species - invasive species wipe out other species - everything is natural, happened due to natural selection, as you can see.

 

The point I'm making is that you should be worried about environment, not because you wanna save the planet - but because you wanna save humans from the consequences of environment changes. 

 

And that means that saving the environment, endangered species, trying to stop spreading invasive species - these are all selfish things done by humans. Caring about the environment is just another arrogant attempt of humans to control nature.

 

And that's why you can't call me selfish and self centered - cause what you're all proposing is basically selfish itself.

[Max_Connor]

Time to let the troll die, let's quit feeding it.

 

I like how people call anybody who just has a different point of view a troll    

[TestSubjectOne]

I like how people call anybody who just has a different point of view a troll

 

 

Well, trolling is still working, and I wanted to sparkle some debate here

Do I really need to say anything else here?

[zA-Z0-9]

that took me way too long to get but what your saying is that he litterally only wants to make us angry

Edited by zA-Z0-9, August 9 2021 - 8:51 PM.