25 replies to this topic

[Vendayn]

Now, first. It is possible I got two different species, if Solenopsis molesta was nesting with them. As me and my wife looked in a microscope and one queen and a worker had three segmented antennas, but two other workers only had two segmented antennas.

I found them in an urban area, near an exotic plant garden (people can walk around it), with lots of Argentine ants around. They were found in Los Angeles California, in an irrigated sandy area. The colony went about 10 feet in length along the sidewalk, and they were up on the hillside as well. They had small mounds all over. The workers do sting/bite (had one hurt surprisingly a lot for a tiny ant and happened to my wife too). But, the queen and one worker we used a microscope on (a really high quality microscope, can even see the inside of the ant) had a three segmented antenna (100% positive on this). Except, two other workers we looked at had only two segmented antennas.

Also, the workers are reddish in color, with a black abdomen. And, when looked at in a microscope, they are more yellow than red. The queens are mostly brown, with a darker colored head and a darker abdomen. A few of the queens are more yellow. They have a lot of queens in each colony, I got over 30 of them. The workers themselves are 2-3 MM long (there is about a 1 mm difference) and the queens are about 7 or so. The workers are actually about the same size as Monomorium ergatogyna workers. The queens might be about the same size as M. ergatogyna queens as well, maybe a little bit bigger.

The ants tend to cling onto each other like you'd see Army ants do. I can scoop up a bunch and they all cling and hang on like a chain and ball of ants. Also, I didn't see this myself and my wife isn't really into ants. So I'm not sure how accurate this can be. But, the queen had mandibles going straight as "normal". But, the worker(s) had mandibles facing downward.

Also another detail. My wife discovered that they have a very similar "feature" that Nylanderia fulva do. They do not appear to have a stinger, but this weird fluffy thing at the end of their abdomen...no idea how to describe it, but, I see Nylanderia fulva have about the same looking thing we saw in the microscope. However ,my ants have two petioles (that is 100% sure). Unless it is just a little stub of a stinger, the microscope wasn't fully in focus of it and was hard to make out what it was. If it was a stinger, it was pretty tiny, but explains the painful sting.

Any idea on an ID from this?

Edited by Vendayn, June 6 2015 - 2:08 PM.

[Vendayn]

I was thinking they could also possibly be Trichomyrmex destructor (I guess they used to be in the Monomorium family). But, I don't know the difference between them, just between Solenopsis molesta and Monomorium pharaonis have different number of segments

[Alza]

I'm so confused

[Vendayn]

Solenopsis molesta have two segmented antennas, and two workers me and my wife looked at in a microscope had that. But, one queen and one worker had a three segmented antenna which Solenopsis molesta do not have.

 

Workers are mostly a reddish with a black abdomen (like you'd see in Solenopsis xyloni or maybe Solenopsis invicta), a few are kind of yellow/orange-looking, and there is a size difference between them (just a little, maybe by 1mm). They are 1.5 to 2.5 or so MM long, so they really small ants. The queens have a huge variety of colors, from yellow with a brown head/abdomen to a red with a black abdomen or more brown in color.

 

Not sure what the species is, or if there is more than one living together for some reason.

Edited by Vendayn, June 5 2015 - 8:25 PM.

[Ants4fun]

Solenopsis molestata nests by other ants frequently, so that might be the case here.

[Ants4fun]

Without pics it is nearly impossible to id.

Edited by Ants4fun, June 5 2015 - 8:47 PM.

[Vendayn]

I don't have any camera that can take pictures of ants so tiny. Can't even get nice looking Pogonomyrmex pictures and those are really big ants.

 

But, yeah. Actually, Solenopsis molesta do tend to live near other ants. So, I might have got two ant colonies in one by accident. I'm still pretty sure the other species is Monomorium pharaonis as they look really similar and nearly the same size and have the three segments.

 

Also, if it helps with an ID. The ants tend to cling onto each other like you'd see Army ants do. I can scoop up a bunch and they all cling and hang on like a chain and ball of ants. Also, I didn't see this myself and my wife isn't really into ants. So I'm not sure how accurate this can be. But, the queen had mandibles going straight as "normal". But, the worker(s) had mandibles facing downward.

[Vendayn]

I "think" I saw these out in the Salton Sea area one year, nesting by an oasis. Southeast of Palm Springs by Arizona border. They had similar mounds, were small like them and looked similar and made chains out of their body. I remember like my colony, I picked a bunch up and they made a chain and crawled up from bottom to top, onto my hand. Then they also made ant balls too like mine do, when picked up.

 

Does this sound like any ant that any expert may know about?

 

Also another detail. My wife discovered that they have a very similar "feature" that Nylanderia fulva do. They do not have a stinger, but this weird fluffy thing at the end of their abdomen...no idea how to describe it, but I see Nylanderia fulva have the same exact thing we saw in the microscope. But,my ants have two petioles (unless we looked at the microscope wrong, but it definitely looked like two) and not one.

Edited by Vendayn, June 5 2015 - 11:07 PM.

[gcsnelling]

Oh glod my head hurts.

[Vendayn]

Oh glod my head hurts.

I cleaned up the main post a bit. When I made it I was dead tired from a long day of traveling everywhere. Sorry. xD

 

Do you have any idea what they could be? From my understanding of what they have, is they have an acidopore. Which is what we see in the microscope. Seems that would be in the Formicinae subfamily. Any other species have it outside of that subfamily?

[Vendayn]

There, I re-did the main post. No idea what I was trying to say. Guess I shouldn't post when I'm dead tired and more like a zombie! xD Sorry about that.

[Chromerust]

I've only seen s. Molesta out ant night. Are you sure it's not forelius?

[Vendayn]

Definitely not Forelius, these are more like Monomorium ergatogyna in body size and shape. Exept the queens are a little bit bigger than Monomorium ergatogyna queens. They also sting really good for such a tiny ant, and either have a really short/small stinger or the weird acidopore thing some ants have. And have two petioles not one that Forelius have.

 

Colonies are vastly more condensed too than Forelius ants, I estimate easily over 10,000 ants in a small area. I got LOTS of workers and queens without even trying, just like the one Monomorium ergatogyna colony I got.

 

In fact, out of all the ants...some type of Monomorium is closest that I can think of.

 

(edit: The queens are actually pretty much the size of Monomorium ergatogyna queens, about 5 mm. Some just have much larger abdomens because they are swelled up with food/eggs. They are really small too. I measured properly this time. )

Edited by Vendayn, June 6 2015 - 6:28 PM.

[Vendayn]

The closest I can come to an ID on my own, is actually Trichomyrmex destructor, which used to be named Monomorium destructor? Or is it actually Monomorium destructor? Google says two different things. My ants DO have narrow trails, and do forage slowly. They look exactly like them. The Pharaoh ant, which I thought they might be at first, is out as they don't have a stinger and mine do.

Does this sound like that species at all?

 

My wife thought they looked pretty much exactly alike from what she saw in her microscope. And they do seem really similar.

Edited by Vendayn, June 6 2015 - 6:50 PM.

[PTAntFan]

Could the antenna segment problem be related to some kind of parasitic species?  Just guessing out of the blue as I have limited ID skills.

[Vendayn]

Hm. It could be. Because the queen we looked at, and one worker, definitely had three segments. Where as the other two only had two segments. It could be some kind of colony that got a parisitic ant species in it.

 

I'd have no idea what they could be, if it was that.

 

Though one unique thing like I said in my posts, if you pick up one ant, they tend to make a chain out of their bodies if other workers are nearby. And if I scoop them up, they put themselves into a ball like you'd see of Solenopsis invicta. They readily climb on my hand, and I've had a couple good stings from them on my hand. For such a tiny ant, its on par with a Solenopsis invicta sting except without the itching afterward. Kind of surprising for such a tiny species.

 

Also, while they are active day and night. They are most active in the day time. They mostly disappear at night. They also barely walk on the plastic. They almost entirely stay on the ground. However, they don't seem to be subterranean, as they readily make trails on the surface going from nest to nest.

Edited by Vendayn, June 7 2015 - 11:10 AM.

[Myrmicinae]

Have you considered Wasmannia auropunctata?  Those are quite small but supposedly have a very painful sting.  See this photo.

 

Edit: I just read your first post more carefully and it may not be such a good fit.  For example, W. auropunctata workers are uniformly orange and do not have a black gaster.

Edited by Myrmicinae, June 7 2015 - 9:46 PM.

[Vendayn]

You know, that is actually the closest match I've seen. I took another look at the workers, and a lot have that yellowish abdomen. A lot more than before, because when I first got them I'm pretty sure they had mostly black abdomens. So, maybe it was diet.I've fed mine a lot of honey and they might have had a different diet where they were. And taking a closer look with a magnifying glass (bought one today just for these guys)...all the abdomens are yellowish/orange. Its just, inside the abdomen has black stuff that they probably ate and it went in. The abdomens aren't actually black, but the same color as the worker.

 

And this picture matches 100% most of the queens I got, just a few queens are more yellow. And that does look like my workers I got, and maybe the black part of the ant's abdomen (as seen in the picture) is what I saw. They are so small, I couldn't see clearly with my bad eyes.

 

http://www.alexander...nia/i-HB7GpVd/A

 

Seeing that these guys have a very painful sting, even though tiny (and mine definitely do, it was worse than a Solenopsis invicta sting or at least very close to the same)...at this point I am pretty sure it is that.

 

Which would make it the first found colony of them in California, as far as I know.

Edited by Vendayn, June 7 2015 - 10:36 PM.

[Vendayn]

Actually, according to...

 

http://entnemdept.uf...le_fire_ant.htm

 

Wasmannia auropunctata have been found in L.A. And go figure I go to the location where they are, which is a huge coincidence as that was where my parents job was.

[James C. Trager]

Vendayn:

You're not going to get a proper ID without decent pictures of the ants themselves. If you want to stop making flailing guesses and really learn to identify ants, you must get a camera. For years now you've gone without even a usable point and shoot camera, yet you have a computer and can indulge in these long posts which end up in frustration and uncertainty. Start saving for that camera and bring us something we can use. Please. The small cameras are getting better and better close-up capabilities and they're not very expensive.
And note: A well-focused picture at lower magnification is often more useful than a fuzzy picture at high magnification.