18 replies to this topic

[Chickalo]

Hello again,

 

I do hope I'm not clogging the forums with my USDA permit questions, but rather be safe then sorry I guess.

 

So USDA is really confusing.  So here's what I'm trying to figure out:  Do you need another permit for Atta/Trachymyrmex/Acromyrmex fungus?  There's little to no information of what species of fungus they keep and whether or not it counts as a pathogen.  It doesn't harm plants by itself so technically it doesn't count as a plant parasite, however it does feed on the plant parts it's cultivators provide it.  Pathogen is defined as a plant disease, so the fungus shouldn't fall under this category?

 

Also, "Plant pathogens also include non-genetically engineered infectious substances which can directly or indirectly injure, cause disease, or damage in any plants, plant parts, or plant products," meaning that the fungus DOES harm plants, however it's not the one directly harming plants, and if anything your the one harming plants to give to your ants to give to their fungus.

 

Anyways, if you respond, thanks,

Chickalo

 

[Manitobant]

You will never get fungus growers approved sadly. They are one of the ants that are actually considered “plant pests.”

[drtrmiller]

The fungus cultivated by these ants cannot grow without the ants, so I wouldn't personally worry about obtaining a permit for moving only the fungus.

 

Sometimes it makes more sense to abide by the intent, and not the letter, of the law.

Edited by drtrmiller, April 16 2021 - 6:10 AM.

[Antkeeper01]

i aslo have a question; do you need to renew your permit after a year if you bought sp that were only native to your state?

[mmcguffi]

Many/most basidiomycetes ("mushrooms") grow on decaying plant matter -- this is not the same as a plant pathogen. You can buy various mushroom growing kits that travel across state lines with no issues -- I don't see how shipping Attamyces/Leucocoprinus would be any different than those kits

 

In fact Leucocoprinus sp is frequently a hitchhiker in plant soil -- if you have ever gotten yellow/white mushrooms that pop up in your house plants after watering, this is likely Leucocoprinus sp. The fungus that Attines grow is Leucocoprinus (with the exception of a few ants), so I can't see how this would be an issue at all

Edited by mmcguffi, April 26 2021 - 2:00 PM.

[Kaelwizard]

Many/most basidiomycetes ("mushrooms") grow on decaying plant matter -- this is not the same as a plant pathogen. You can buy various mushroom growing kits that travel across state lines with no issues -- I don't see how shipping Attamyces/Leucocoprinus would be any different than those kits

 

In fact Leucocoprinus sp is frequently a hitchhiker in plant soil -- if you have ever gotten yellow/white mushrooms that pop up in your house plants after watering, this is likely Leucocoprinus sp. The fungus that Attines grow is Leucocoprinus (with the exception of a few ants), so I can't see how this would be an issue at all

I understand your argument, but since the ants are plant pests for cutting living plants, they can not and most likely never will be shipped over state lines. The fungus can't really survive without the ants, so unfortunately your argument does not help anything. I also wouldn't try to base your argument for the fungus grown by Attines on mushroom growing kits. It is not the same process and the ants normally use pieces of still living plants to cultivate their fungus, not decaying plants.

Edited by Kaelwizard, April 27 2021 - 4:17 AM.

[aznphenom]

You will never get fungus growers approved sadly. They are one of the ants that are actually considered “plant pests.”

I can confirm THIS IS NOT TRUE.

[Ferox_Formicae]

 

Many/most basidiomycetes ("mushrooms") grow on decaying plant matter -- this is not the same as a plant pathogen. You can buy various mushroom growing kits that travel across state lines with no issues -- I don't see how shipping Attamyces/Leucocoprinus would be any different than those kits

 

In fact Leucocoprinus sp is frequently a hitchhiker in plant soil -- if you have ever gotten yellow/white mushrooms that pop up in your house plants after watering, this is likely Leucocoprinus sp. The fungus that Attines grow is Leucocoprinus (with the exception of a few ants), so I can't see how this would be an issue at all

I understand your argument, but since the ants are plant pests for cutting living plants, they can not and most likely never will be shipped over state lines. The fungus can't really survive without the ants, so unfortunately your argument does not help anything. I also wouldn't try to base your argument for the fungus grown by Attines on mushroom growing kits. It is not the same process and the ants normally use pieces of still living plants to cultivate their fungus, not decaying plants.

 

Actually the fungus can survive without the ants, just not for very long. There's a very interesting study I found yesterday on fungus hygiene during nest founding in Acromyrmex octospinosus (read paper here) in which scientists isolated the fungus from foundress queens and either suspended it (as queens do in the wild) or left it on the floor of the chamber. It showed that the fungus will last longer when suspended, and it will last for a little bit, possibly long enough for very quick, very careful shipment, but the ants receiving the fungus will have to work double time to weed out all the extra bacteria that's been accumulating. So I'd say it can be done, but it's risky, as you risk loosing a significant amount, if not all, of the fungus without very precise measures taken to insure its survival.

[Ferox_Formicae]

 

You will never get fungus growers approved sadly. They are one of the ants that are actually considered “plant pests.”

I can confirm THIS IS NOT TRUE.

 

Are you referring to them not being plant pests? While I do agree that most of the 200 or so fungus-farming Attines cannot be considered plant pests, the big three genera, Atta, Acromyrmex, and Amoimyrmex can 100% be considered plant pests. Disney World was actually denied getting a colony of Atta due to APHIS stating that the consequences of them accidentally getting released, especially in Florida, could be great. In fact, I don't think anyone in Florida (aside from researchers I'd assume) can obtain any species of leafcutter, even with a permit due to the risk the pose on native Florida flora. Leafcutters can clear as much vegetation as an adult cow in a day. In Texas, Atta texana is a major crop pest in citrus fields, as they can go through an entire tree in a day. So yes, Atta, Acromyrmex, and Amoimyrmex can be considered plant pests, though other fungus farmers like Trachymyrmex, Cyphomyrmex, and Mycetomoellerius are not pests, though the USDA still considers them as such.

[aznphenom]

 

 

You will never get fungus growers approved sadly. They are one of the ants that are actually considered “plant pests.”

I can confirm THIS IS NOT TRUE.

 

Are you referring to them not being plant pests? While I do agree that most of the 200 or so fungus-farming Attines cannot be considered plant pests, the big three genera, Atta, Acromyrmex, and Amoimyrmex can 100% be considered plant pests. Disney World was actually denied getting a colony of Atta due to APHIS stating that the consequences of them accidentally getting released, especially in Florida, could be great. In fact, I don't think anyone in Florida (aside from researchers I'd assume) can obtain any species of leafcutter, even with a permit due to the risk the pose on native Florida flora. Leafcutters can clear as much vegetation as an adult cow in a day. In Texas, Atta texana is a major crop pest in citrus fields, as they can go through an entire tree in a day. So yes, Atta, Acromyrmex, and Amoimyrmex can be considered plant pests, though other fungus farmers like Trachymyrmex, Cyphomyrmex, and Mycetomoellerius are not pests, though the USDA still considers them as such.

 

The " You will never get fungus growers approved sadly." I know someone that has a permit for them. Atta to be exact. Probably could also get Acromyrmex.

[Ferox_Formicae]

 

 

 

You will never get fungus growers approved sadly. They are one of the ants that are actually considered “plant pests.”

I can confirm THIS IS NOT TRUE.

 

Are you referring to them not being plant pests? While I do agree that most of the 200 or so fungus-farming Attines cannot be considered plant pests, the big three genera, Atta, Acromyrmex, and Amoimyrmex can 100% be considered plant pests. Disney World was actually denied getting a colony of Atta due to APHIS stating that the consequences of them accidentally getting released, especially in Florida, could be great. In fact, I don't think anyone in Florida (aside from researchers I'd assume) can obtain any species of leafcutter, even with a permit due to the risk the pose on native Florida flora. Leafcutters can clear as much vegetation as an adult cow in a day. In Texas, Atta texana is a major crop pest in citrus fields, as they can go through an entire tree in a day. So yes, Atta, Acromyrmex, and Amoimyrmex can be considered plant pests, though other fungus farmers like Trachymyrmex, Cyphomyrmex, and Mycetomoellerius are not pests, though the USDA still considers them as such.

 

The " You will never get fungus growers approved sadly." I know someone that has a permit for them. Atta to be exact. Probably could also get Acromyrmex.

 

By "approved" they mean similar to what happened with Pogonomyrmex occidentalis, where you no longer require a permit to obtain a colony. With a permit, you can still get these ants (except in certain cases as I mentioned), it just may be a bit more difficult.

[Chickalo]

 

 

You will never get fungus growers approved sadly. They are one of the ants that are actually considered “plant pests.”

I can confirm THIS IS NOT TRUE.

 

Are you referring to them not being plant pests? While I do agree that most of the 200 or so fungus-farming Attines cannot be considered plant pests, the big three genera, Atta, Acromyrmex, and Amoimyrmex can 100% be considered plant pests. Disney World was actually denied getting a colony of Atta due to APHIS stating that the consequences of them accidentally getting released, especially in Florida, could be great. In fact, I don't think anyone in Florida (aside from researchers I'd assume) can obtain any species of leafcutter, even with a permit due to the risk the pose on native Florida flora. Leafcutters can clear as much vegetation as an adult cow in a day. In Texas, Atta texana is a major crop pest in citrus fields, as they can go through an entire tree in a day. So yes, Atta, Acromyrmex, and Amoimyrmex can be considered plant pests, though other fungus farmers like Trachymyrmex, Cyphomyrmex, and Mycetomoellerius are not pests, though the USDA still considers them as such.

 

Why would Disney World want Atta?  Just sounds like a nightmare in a park full of over excited children who like to break stuff.  Anyways, the USDA is probably more careful with live shipments into Florida, y'know, since it has a big problem with invasives.

Edit:  Just found out Disney named a character in Bug's Life after the genus Atta...  God I hate that movie.

Edited by Chickalo, April 27 2021 - 9:19 AM.

[NPLT]

 

 

 

You will never get fungus growers approved sadly. They are one of the ants that are actually considered “plant pests.”

I can confirm THIS IS NOT TRUE.

 

Are you referring to them not being plant pests? While I do agree that most of the 200 or so fungus-farming Attines cannot be considered plant pests, the big three genera, Atta, Acromyrmex, and Amoimyrmex can 100% be considered plant pests. Disney World was actually denied getting a colony of Atta due to APHIS stating that the consequences of them accidentally getting released, especially in Florida, could be great. In fact, I don't think anyone in Florida (aside from researchers I'd assume) can obtain any species of leafcutter, even with a permit due to the risk the pose on native Florida flora. Leafcutters can clear as much vegetation as an adult cow in a day. In Texas, Atta texana is a major crop pest in citrus fields, as they can go through an entire tree in a day. So yes, Atta, Acromyrmex, and Amoimyrmex can be considered plant pests, though other fungus farmers like Trachymyrmex, Cyphomyrmex, and Mycetomoellerius are not pests, though the USDA still considers them as such.

 

Why would Disney World want Atta?  Just sounds like a nightmare in a park full of over excited children who like to break stuff.  Anyways, the USDA is probably more careful with live shipments into Florida, y'know, since it has a big problem with invasives.

Edit:  Just found out Disney named a character in Bug's Life after the genus Atta...  God I hate that movie.

 

You know what, I'm quite happy Disney was denied getting a colony of Atta sp. I mean, I don't doubt the animal keepers and handlers could probably raise them successfully, but it's more the fact Disney would probably make it some kind of attraction and that would probably stress the ants very much ( it just occurred to me, that my point may be a bit hypocritical because three Zoos in Poland have a fungus grower colony, but still, I fear ants would be stressed too much in Disney World ).

Edited by NPLT, April 27 2021 - 10:56 AM.

[mmcguffi]

 

Many/most basidiomycetes ("mushrooms") grow on decaying plant matter -- this is not the same as a plant pathogen. You can buy various mushroom growing kits that travel across state lines with no issues -- I don't see how shipping Attamyces/Leucocoprinus would be any different than those kits

 

In fact Leucocoprinus sp is frequently a hitchhiker in plant soil -- if you have ever gotten yellow/white mushrooms that pop up in your house plants after watering, this is likely Leucocoprinus sp. The fungus that Attines grow is Leucocoprinus (with the exception of a few ants), so I can't see how this would be an issue at all

I understand your argument, but since the ants are plant pests for cutting living plants, they can not and most likely never will be shipped over state lines. The fungus can't really survive without the ants, so unfortunately your argument does not help anything. I also wouldn't try to base your argument for the fungus grown by Attines on mushroom growing kits. It is not the same process and the ants normally use pieces of still living plants to cultivate their fungus, not decaying plants.

 

 

 

 

 

Many/most basidiomycetes ("mushrooms") grow on decaying plant matter -- this is not the same as a plant pathogen. You can buy various mushroom growing kits that travel across state lines with no issues -- I don't see how shipping Attamyces/Leucocoprinus would be any different than those kits

 

In fact Leucocoprinus sp is frequently a hitchhiker in plant soil -- if you have ever gotten yellow/white mushrooms that pop up in your house plants after watering, this is likely Leucocoprinus sp. The fungus that Attines grow is Leucocoprinus (with the exception of a few ants), so I can't see how this would be an issue at all

I understand your argument, but since the ants are plant pests for cutting living plants, they can not and most likely never will be shipped over state lines. The fungus can't really survive without the ants, so unfortunately your argument does not help anything. I also wouldn't try to base your argument for the fungus grown by Attines on mushroom growing kits. It is not the same process and the ants normally use pieces of still living plants to cultivate their fungus, not decaying plants.

 

Actually the fungus can survive without the ants, just not for very long. There's a very interesting study I found yesterday on fungus hygiene during nest founding in Acromyrmex octospinosus (read paper here) in which scientists isolated the fungus from foundress queens and either suspended it (as queens do in the wild) or left it on the floor of the chamber. It showed that the fungus will last longer when suspended, and it will last for a little bit, possibly long enough for very quick, very careful shipment, but the ants receiving the fungus will have to work double time to weed out all the extra bacteria that's been accumulating. So I'd say it can be done, but it's risky, as you risk loosing a significant amount, if not all, of the fungus without very precise measures taken to insure its survival.

 

Attamyces can indefinitely survive without the ants -- this is a common misconception. Here is some that I plated on agar a couple weeks ago   (one bacterial contaminate that needs to be removed)

Attached Images

• 

Edited by mmcguffi, April 27 2021 - 2:06 PM.

[steelplant]

Mmcguffi, that is so cool. Have fantasized about growing ant fungus like this as i grow mushrooms too. Have you grown it beyond the petri dish? I bet the fungus has medicinal properties. Thanks so much for posting.

[mmcguffi]

Mmcguffi, that is so cool. Have fantasized about growing ant fungus like this as i grow mushrooms too. Have you grown it beyond the petri dish? I bet the fungus has medicinal properties. Thanks so much for posting.

Thanks! I have not, but that is the plan. It's well established that you can grow it on various agar substrates, but I am going to try to culture it on various other "more natural" substrates (such as grains, coco fiber, etc).

 

The goal is two-fold: 1) try to propagate it to large amounts without ants so it can be used to supplement new queens that may have dropped their fungal pellets and 2) try and induce it to fruit (ie: make mushrooms). Mushrooms have been reported to sprout from Attamyces (the ant fungus) from several Atta and other attines, but never on purpose, typically in the wild, and not with the particular strain that I have (Atta texana fungus). On a separate but related note, it's actually unknown if attine fungus "escapes" back into the wild periodically and there is more research needed there. The fact that some strains still have the ability to form mushrooms suggests that it indeed does "go back into the wild" so to speak

 

As far as it's medicinal properties, I'm a scientist, so consuming random, unstudied bioactive compounds is not a very attractive idea to me haha. I would think that ant fungus is probably pretty benign, but some members of the same genus (Attamyces is actually Leucocoprinus) can be moderately toxic to humans, so I wouldn't recommend it!

Edited by mmcguffi, April 28 2021 - 3:17 PM.

[steelplant]

Thanks mmcguffi for the further information. Such a great idea to have back up fungus for the queens. Is there anywhere you're writing this up? Would love to follow along. Best of luck getting it to fruit as well. What an adventure.

[UtahAnts]

Any updates or new findings with the artificial fungus cultures?

[mmcguffi]

Any updates or new findings with the artificial fungus cultures?

 

So I actually never removed that bacterial contaminant in the above picture, and it slowly took over the plate and killed the fungus...

 

My Atta are doing quite well though, so I should try and plate some again. I'll give it a go sometime this next week. However, it grows really slowly on agar and will probably take a couple of months to fully cover the plate (then I can move it to other substrates, etc)