19 replies to this topic

[jabbado]

Hi everyone. I'm new to ant keeping. Recently I've started making small plaster nests more for practice at the moment. However I'd like to start using either hydrostone or grout as they are stronger and more durable than PoP. But I have a couple of questions.

 

First, both hydrostone and grout contain portland cement. So how come these products are safe for ants when portland cement has a high alkalinity when freshly set? I mean, I used to make portland cement based caves etc for my fish tank. You can't just throw some freshly cast cement into an aquarium as it will increase the pH of the water. I'd put the objects into the toilet cistern for several weeks to reduce the alkalinity of them (the constant flushing works a treat, without wasting water). I haven't seen mention in nest tutorials of "aging" a new grout nest.

 

Second, reading the safety data sheet for Hydro-stone it seems to be simply a mix of ~95% plaster and ~5% portland cement. I haven't come across actual hydro-stone at the local hardware stores but I do have those two ingredients. So has anyone tried mixing their own by adding a small amount of portland cement to plaster?

[NickAnter]

Not heard anyone on here making their own. However, there is some debate as to the safety of hydrostone when freshly cast. Generally, it is let to off-gas for a week or so, however, some people have had no probems putting ants in after it dries. Now, I'm not sure what the exact percentage of portland cement is in hydrostone, I imagine it is of course not pure, and as such the amount is small enough that it does not cause damage. Rather similar to there being cyanide in apple seeds, however, if we ate an apple seed, we wouldn't just drop dead--its a proportionally small amount.

[steelplant]

I make my nests from Portland cement and vermiculite. In the early days I put a Lasius umbratus queen in one only a couple of days after pouring it. She was fine, though I would never do that again. But it should be fine after curing for a week or two. My mix is 1:1 cement: vermiculite by volume.

You're right to be cautious though as ants are so sensitive. Some people put a few (often wild) workers in for a while to test the nest safety before putting the queen/colony in.

I look forward to seeing what you make.

[jabbado]

Thanks for the answers.

 

I make my nests from Portland cement and vermiculite

 

That sounds like a plan. They'd be sturdy nests and cheap . Do you crush the vermiculite up into smaller particles or doesn't it matter?

Edited by jabbado, February 9 2021 - 12:12 PM.

[steelplant]

I've tried both but only use fine grade now. It's ready to sculpt after a few days and is a beauty to carve.

[AleeGuy]

Hi everyone. I'm new to ant keeping. Recently I've started making small plaster nests more for practice at the moment. However I'd like to start using either hydrostone or grout as they are stronger and more durable than PoP. But I have a couple of questions.

First, both hydrostone and grout contain portland cement. So how come these products are safe for ants when portland cement has a high alkalinity when freshly set? I mean, I used to make portland cement based caves etc for my fish tank. You can't just throw some freshly cast cement into an aquarium as it will increase the pH of the water. I'd put the objects into the toilet cistern for several weeks to reduce the alkalinity of them (the constant flushing works a treat, without wasting water). I haven't seen mention in nest tutorials of "aging" a new grout nest.

Second, reading the safety data sheet for Hydro-stone it seems to be simply a mix of ~95% plaster and ~5% portland cement. I haven't come across actual hydro-stone at the local hardware stores but I do have those two ingredients. So has anyone tried mixing their own by adding a small amount of portland cement to plaster?

There is a quite amount of people have done that. Yes you just mix plaster of paris with portland cement(19:1). If you check page 4 of 52000000097 SDS(that has 95% POP and 5% portland cement), it says that the ph level of the material is 8-10, it is neutral enough to keep the ants in. On a newer SDS(52000000012, Hydro-Stone® ME Special Gypsum Cement) ph level is on neutral, it does not uses portland cement, but has more crystalline silica, and titanium dioxide that compensates it. You might try that but I've never seen anyone using that so I'm not sure it will work out.

[mmcguffi]

You're right to be cautious though as ants are so sensitive. Some people put a few (often wild) workers in for a while to test the nest safety before putting the queen/colony in.
 

I recently did this with name-brand hydrostone (from the Plaster Guys on ebay), and some Atta texana workers I put in the formicarium did NOT like it. They looked like they were drunk and kept flipping onto their backs for hours at a time. When I aired it out they would perk up, so it seems it may have been some off-gassing or something.

 

I did not let this cure though (letting it sit for a while), so I just hydrated some that I let sit for about a week. I'm unclear as to how this would change anything, but some people floated this as a possible solution. Ill eventually be updating here (https://www.formicul...-other-problem/) if you want to follow along

[jabbado]

Awesome, thanks everyone. I think I might try both the cement/vermiculite and "diy hydrostone" methods and see which one I prefer.

[mmcguffi]

I know Drew (owner of the site: dspdrew) has done some experiments with pure portland cement. You might try searching for some of his threads on this to see if there is relevant info there too

[steelplant]

The cement/verm mix wants to be quite thick, not runny, aim for a porridge like consistency. Otherwise the verm will want to float to the top. Can be unmoulded after 24 hours at room temperature. Will be interested to hear how you get on.

Edit: the 1:1 ratio is by volume not weight

Edited by steelplant, February 11 2021 - 6:27 AM.

[jabbado]

There is a quite amount of people have done that. Yes you just mix plaster of paris with portland cement(19:1).

Searched the forums for using such a mix but found nothing. I tried it without much success.

 

I made a small batch with 5% Portland cement. First I tried mixing it into water the same as I do with plain PoP. At first it seemed a lot thinner than normal, but started getting thicker fairly quickly. I poured it into a container to set. But apart from the slight grey color and the faster setting time I can't see any difference in the strength compared to straight PoP.

 

So I decided to try following USG's Hydro-Stone mixing guide: Use consistency of 32 (32 parts water to 100 parts Hydro-Stone). As I was weighing out the mix on a 0.01g scale I realised how much plaster vs water there was and it just didn't look like there'd be enought water to thin/hydrate the entire mix. And I was right. Ended up with a big lump of unstirrable crap.

 

So I don't know, there's something "magic" about the Hydrostones/hydrocals that I just don't understand. Looks like I may have to try steelplant's method. Maybe even using coco peat instead of vermiculite.

[MinigunL5]

 

There is a quite amount of people have done that. Yes you just mix plaster of paris with portland cement(19:1).

Searched the forums for using such a mix but found nothing. I tried it without much success.

 

I made a small batch with 5% Portland cement. First I tried mixing it into water the same as I do with plain PoP. At first it seemed a lot thinner than normal, but started getting thicker fairly quickly. I poured it into a container to set. But apart from the slight grey color and the faster setting time I can't see any difference in the strength compared to straight PoP.

 

So I decided to try following USG's Hydro-Stone mixing guide: Use consistency of 32 (32 parts water to 100 parts Hydro-Stone). As I was weighing out the mix on a 0.01g scale I realised how much plaster vs water there was and it just didn't look like there'd be enought water to thin/hydrate the entire mix. And I was right. Ended up with a big lump of unstirrable crap.

 

So I don't know, there's something "magic" about the Hydrostones/hydrocals that I just don't understand. Looks like I may have to try steelplant's method. Maybe even using coco peat instead of vermiculite.

 

Hydrostone is available online. I heard Hydrocal is better though.

[AleeGuy]

There is a quite amount of people have done that. Yes you just mix plaster of paris with portland cement(19:1).

Searched the forums for using such a mix but found nothing. I tried it without much success.

I made a small batch with 5% Portland cement. First I tried mixing it into water the same as I do with plain PoP. At first it seemed a lot thinner than normal, but started getting thicker fairly quickly. I poured it into a container to set. But apart from the slight grey color and the faster setting time I can't see any difference in the strength compared to straight PoP.

So I decided to try following USG's Hydro-Stone mixing guide: Use consistency of 32 (32 parts water to 100 parts Hydro-Stone). As I was weighing out the mix on a 0.01g scale I realised how much plaster vs water there was and it just didn't look like there'd be enought water to thin/hydrate the entire mix. And I was right. Ended up with a big lump of unstirrable crap.

So I don't know, there's something "magic" about the Hydrostones/hydrocals that I just don't understand. Looks like I may have to try steelplant's method. Maybe even using coco peat instead of vermiculite.

Hydrostone is available online. I heard Hydrocal is better though.

Well, no. The main difference between hydrostone and hydrocal is that hydrocal's compressive strength is 6,000 psi while hydrostone is 10,000 so I don't see a reason why would hydrocal be better. Do you know why the person who you heard that from said why it's better?

[NickAnter]

Possibly the hydrostone is more dense, and thus absorbs less water? Not sure, but that would be my guess as to a reason why it could be better.

[NickAnter]

Also, in regards to mixing, I have found that the recommended 3-1 mixture is generally pretty good. Not sure what issue you are having, but generally, I don't really measure anymore, and simply add water until the consistency is the same as that of the 3-1 ratio, which is like that of a thick pudding.

[MinigunL5]

 

 

 

There is a quite amount of people have done that. Yes you just mix plaster of paris with portland cement(19:1).

Searched the forums for using such a mix but found nothing. I tried it without much success.

I made a small batch with 5% Portland cement. First I tried mixing it into water the same as I do with plain PoP. At first it seemed a lot thinner than normal, but started getting thicker fairly quickly. I poured it into a container to set. But apart from the slight grey color and the faster setting time I can't see any difference in the strength compared to straight PoP.

So I decided to try following USG's Hydro-Stone mixing guide: Use consistency of 32 (32 parts water to 100 parts Hydro-Stone). As I was weighing out the mix on a 0.01g scale I realised how much plaster vs water there was and it just didn't look like there'd be enought water to thin/hydrate the entire mix. And I was right. Ended up with a big lump of unstirrable crap.

So I don't know, there's something "magic" about the Hydrostones/hydrocals that I just don't understand. Looks like I may have to try steelplant's method. Maybe even using coco peat instead of vermiculite.

Hydrostone is available online. I heard Hydrocal is better though.

Well, no. The main difference between hydrostone and hydrocal is that hydrocal's compressive strength is 6,000 psi while hydrostone is 10,000 so I don't see a reason why would hydrocal be better. Do you know why the person who you heard that from said why it's better?

 

Sorry I meant ultracal 30. The reason is because it doesn't expand as much so it's easier to remove from containers where it's casted in. Although hydrostone is apparently harder but don't think it's a big difference.

Edited by MinigunL5, February 18 2021 - 3:44 PM.

[antsandmore]

Also, in regards to mixing, I have found that the recommended 3-1 mixture is generally pretty good. Not sure what issue you are having, but generally, I don't really measure anymore, and simply add water until the consistency is the same as that of the 3-1 ratio, which is like that of a thick pudding.

I've hard that you add hydrostone to water instead of water to hydrostone, maybe that's what they did wrong?

[AleeGuy]

There is a quite amount of people have done that. Yes you just mix plaster of paris with portland cement(19:1).

Searched the forums for using such a mix but found nothing. I tried it without much success.

I made a small batch with 5% Portland cement. First I tried mixing it into water the same as I do with plain PoP. At first it seemed a lot thinner than normal, but started getting thicker fairly quickly. I poured it into a container to set. But apart from the slight grey color and the faster setting time I can't see any difference in the strength compared to straight PoP.

So I decided to try following USG's Hydro-Stone mixing guide: Use consistency of 32 (32 parts water to 100 parts Hydro-Stone). As I was weighing out the mix on a 0.01g scale I realised how much plaster vs water there was and it just didn't look like there'd be enought water to thin/hydrate the entire mix. And I was right. Ended up with a big lump of unstirrable crap.

So I don't know, there's something "magic" about the Hydrostones/hydrocals that I just don't understand. Looks like I may have to try steelplant's method. Maybe even using coco peat instead of vermiculite.

Hydrostone is available online. I heard Hydrocal is better though.

Well, no. The main difference between hydrostone and hydrocal is that hydrocal's compressive strength is 6,000 psi while hydrostone is 10,000 so I don't see a reason why would hydrocal be better. Do you know why the person who you heard that from said why it's better?

Sorry I meant ultracal 30. The reason is because it doesn't expand as much so it's easier to remove from containers where it's casted in. Although hydrostone groutis apparently harder but don't think it's a big difference.

not a big difference. Ultracal 30 compressive strength is 6500 psi and ph level is 11-13 so it is more alkaline.

[NickAnter]

 

Also, in regards to mixing, I have found that the recommended 3-1 mixture is generally pretty good. Not sure what issue you are having, but generally, I don't really measure anymore, and simply add water until the consistency is the same as that of the 3-1 ratio, which is like that of a thick pudding.

I've hard that you add hydrostone to water instead of water to hydrostone, maybe that's what they did wrong?

 

I've done it both ways without noticeable difference.

[Ants_Dakota]

 

You're right to be cautious though as ants are so sensitive. Some people put a few (often wild) workers in for a while to test the nest safety before putting the queen/colony in.
 

I recently did this with name-brand hydrostone (from the Plaster Guys on ebay), and some Atta texana workers I put in the formicarium did NOT like it. They looked like they were drunk and kept flipping onto their backs for hours at a time. When I aired it out they would perk up, so it seems it may have been some off-gassing or something.

 

I did not let this cure though (letting it sit for a while), so I just hydrated some that I let sit for about a week. I'm unclear as to how this would change anything, but some people floated this as a possible solution. Ill eventually be updating here (https://www.formicul...-other-problem/) if you want to follow along

 

that happens i believe when the fumes from the hydrostone are still present in the formicarium. i have had this happen before. hydrostone is fine, the fumes are not.