20 replies to this topic

[UtahAnts]

I was browsing around looking on Etsy and I found a seller selling Lasius niger all across the US. Is this legal? I know you can ship Pogonomyrmex now, but are there other species you can ship? Apparently he passed it through the USDA. I was thinking of buying some if its legal, but I'm nervous that its just spam. He seems to be from another country too...

[ZTYguy]

Then don’t buy them. This guy sounds like he belongs in a dark alley way with a trench coat and a bunch of test tubes.

[UtahAnts]

Then don’t buy them. This guy sounds like he belongs in a dark alley way with a trench coat and a bunch of test tubes.

Haha, yeah that's what I was thinking, some black market seller or something. But are pogonomyrmex occidentalis the only legal species to ship in and through the US?

[ZTYguy]

Yep

[AleeGuy]

ye, to ship other species, the buyer have to have a permit

[UtahAnts]

So you can ship other species if you have a ppq526 permit?

[CheetoLord02]

Sellers do not need a permit. That falls on the buyer. When doing legal interstate trade with a permit, the buyer will send a copy of their permit to the seller, who will include the printed copy in the package with the ants that are being transported across state lines. There is no permit that the seller needs so long as the buyer has appropriate paperwork for it. I'd imagine that the seller in question here caught a native Lasius species and improperly identified it as L. niger. I see this all the time with inexperienced keepers on platforms like GAN and eBay.

Edited by CheetoLord02, January 1 2021 - 8:59 PM.

[StopSpazzing]

Sellers do not need a permit. That falls on the buyer. When doing legal interstate trade with a permit, the buyer will send a copy of their permit to the seller, who will include the printed copy in the package with the ants that are being transported across state lines. There is no permit that the seller needs so long as the buyer has appropriate paperwork for it. I'd imagine that the seller in question here caught a native Lasius species and improperly identified it as L. niger. I see this all the time with inexperienced keepers on platforms like GAN and eBay.

100% this. Good job Cheeto! I tend to find them on eBay and just report them.

Unless you want to possibly get busted, I would suggest just doing it legally and only buy and sell locally.

[Kaelwizard]

On Etsy someone also was selling Messor under the pretense of them being feeder insects.

[antsandmore]

problem is people are going to try to buy these not knowing about permits and the laws, and get scammed. 

[UtahAnts]

Thanks for the help guys. 

 

Sellers do not need a permit. That falls on the buyer. When doing legal interstate trade with a permit, the buyer will send a copy of their permit to the seller, who will include the printed copy in the package with the ants that are being transported across state lines. There is no permit that the seller needs so long as the buyer has appropriate paperwork for it. I'd imagine that the seller in question here caught a native Lasius species and improperly identified it as L. niger. I see this all the time with inexperienced keepers on platforms like GAN and eBay.

 

On Etsy someone also was selling Messor under the pretense of them being feeder insects.

 

So would buying Messor Structor from this seller (who lives pretty close to me) be illegal unless I got a permit for buying a foreign species from Europe even though the transaction is in Utah?

Edited by AntsUtah, January 2 2021 - 9:31 AM.

[AleeGuy]

If you mean that if you buy them from someone who legally(probably not) shipped them Europe to Utah, then legally no. https://www.aphis.us...pdf/PPQ_526.pdfOn page 2(STANDARD SAFEGUARDS OF PERMIT) number 3 says "Pests shall be kept only within the laboratory or designated area at the
permittee’s address."

[ANTdrew]

Whether it’s legal or not, we as a community should not support these unethical sellers. Ebay and Etsy need to crack down on these folks before they cause problems for all of us in the hobby.

[CheetoLord02]

While I have not looked into the exact specifics of the laws, I believe that getting an exotic species from an in-state seller is legal. If the seller did import those exotics legally and then sold them in-state, the blame would fall on them, since their permit only allows those species to be imported to and kept at the address listed on their permit. However, as the buyer, you have not moved any ant species across state lines, so it should be legal. Keeping exotic ant species isn't illegal, just importing them. Since the buyer in this hypothetical did not import the exotic species, it would not be illegal. This is exactly why collecting exotic ants that become imported to greenhouses, or keeping invasive species is legal. The ants were imported (usually unknowingly) by either the greenhouse or via cargo to the state in question, not whoever is collecting them to keep. If it were to be illegal to move exotics in-state between keepers, this would also mean that keeping ants found in greenhouses or even locally established invasives would also be illegal. The law only restricts the transport of ants across state lines, not any movement within the state.

[Vendayn]

While I have not looked into the exact specifics of the laws, I believe that getting an exotic species from an in-state seller is legal. If the seller did import those exotics legally and then sold them in-state, the blame would fall on them, since their permit only allows those species to be imported to and kept at the address listed on their permit. However, as the buyer, you have not moved any ant species across state lines, so it should be legal. Keeping exotic ant species isn't illegal, just importing them. Since the buyer in this hypothetical did not import the exotic species, it would not be illegal. This is exactly why collecting exotic ants that become imported to greenhouses, or keeping invasive species is legal. The ants were imported (usually unknowingly) by either the greenhouse or via cargo to the state in question, not whoever is collecting them to keep. If it were to be illegal to move exotics in-state between keepers, this would also mean that keeping ants found in greenhouses or even locally established invasives would also be illegal. The law only restricts the transport of ants across state lines, not any movement within the state.

In California its illegal to have or relocate or touch Solenopsis invicta. Though tbh...I've dug some up some years back and police were nearby and they didn't care lol. They did ask what I was doing, and just said was digging up fire ants for an ant farm. So...I don't think any of these laws are actually really enforced. No one actually cares about digging up ants, unless you live in a snobby area like I do where everyone complains for the dumbest things.

 

Either way, is it me...or is there a massive rise in illegal ant sellers in the US? Or is it just because its becoming more noticed or both? Ebay is like the wild west of ants (and quite a lot of "animals" on there that shouldn't even have, like extremely invasive stick insects), and I guess etsy is too for ants, never even looked there.

 

I am guessing with covid, that these sellers are on the rise because no one is able to enforce anything, but even before covid it was a problem, just seems way more so. I know at least locally, there isn't even anyone controlling the Pheidole here anymore when before covid, they were out every day trying to control them. And as far as I can tell, there is almost no one able to deal with invasive ants anywhere in the world where there are huge quarantines (like Australia, I don't think even they are doing anything about invasive ants anymore, and if they are its not nearly as much as before).

Edited by Vendayn, January 2 2021 - 11:09 AM.

[Kaelwizard]

I mean Etsy had shipping time available for the Messor, but who knows what would happen if someone were to actually buy them.

Edited by Kaelwizard, January 2 2021 - 11:27 AM.

[PurdueEntomology]

Well I have applied for my permit and so far it is moving along rather well.  I have one more form they requested to submit.  

[Jakerobs]

Well I have applied for my permit and so far it is moving along rather well.  I have one more form they requested to submit.  

 

Just out of curiosity, how long do you expect the whole process to take? Also, does it come with a big price tag? 

[AleeGuy]

Well I have applied for my permit and so far it is moving along rather well. I have one more form they requested to submit.

Just out of curiosity, how long do you expect the whole process to take? Also, does it come with a big price tag?

It doesn't cost anything. And it usually takes a few months(about 3 or more)

[PurdueEntomology]

 

 

Well I have applied for my permit and so far it is moving along rather well. I have one more form they requested to submit.

Just out of curiosity, how long do you expect the whole process to take? Also, does it come with a big price tag?

It doesn't cost anything. And it usually takes a few months(about 3 or more)

 

It has been 2 weeks since I applied and I have received 3 follow up emails from them so I know my application is being looked at.