33 replies to this topic

[Vendayn]

Most of you know (especially the ones banned here), that the ants and ants keeping discord members spend their entire life going to every hobby forum, sites like ebay, ant keeping videos to find illegal ant keepers. Even if those keepers live in europe where its legal, accusing them of keeping exotic ants, whether true or not. it becomes an all out witch hunt where members are forced to lie about keeping exotic ants and people accuse others for the slightest hint of an exotic ant. Hence the term "witch hunt" because a lot of the time its false or overblown.

 

Its reasonable to not want discussion or trade of illegal ants, either in chat or having members secretly trade with each other. Especially on a discord as big as them that prides themselves on being respected among the science community. But when it becomes an all out witch hunt, people forced to lie, when they spend their entire time going everywhere to see if those people ever posted any hint of an exotic ant...it goes from reasonable to extremely fanatical.

 

When that happens, every illegal ant keeper just lies about it until they happen to get found out. The problem is, that is like banning alcohol in the US...did nothing because the sell of illegal alcohol skyrocketed, and this endangered and killed so many people (and increased the underage drinking) because of badly made alcohol. Now imagine that with exotic ants, suddenly because its forced to be underground and lied about or you will be prosecuted by the discord channel and its members, it goes vastly more unnoticed and vastly increases the chance of them spreading through the US (and other countries where they wouldn't be native to).

 

What is better? To know about it happening and dealing it in a calm, logical, non-witch hunt manner? Not mass banning everyone for it (which leads to them lying and going underground)? At least not banning straight up immediately, especially if there is no evidence they ever talk or message people about it on discord itself (which would break their discord rules). Or force people to lie about it and having it go unnoticed making the problem actually worse? 

 

Problems discussed in the past with AAK aside, that one leads to a very fanatical, very elitist, very witch-huntery community. Its insane to find every person who may or may not keep exotic ants and go full on crusader against them. Makes a terribly fanatic community.

Edited by Vendayn, November 28 2020 - 11:40 AM.

[M_Ants]

Isn't there already a debate thread about this?

[Vendayn]

Isn't there already a debate thread about this?

no, that's about the rules and the leaders. completely different but about the same discord. this is about the witch hunts the discord is pretty infamous for, accusing everyone about exotic ants, making a very large portion of the community lie about exotic ants. So I provide info and examples why that makes things actually worse. 

[DDD101DDD]

As a member of AAK I can confirm that I don't spend my whole life searching for illegal ants on the internet and hunting members down. If you don't like not being able to talk about your illegal ants then go to a different discord server or something.

[Vendayn]

As a member of AAK I can confirm that I don't spend my whole life searching for illegal ants on the internet and hunting members down. If you don't like not being able to talk about your illegal ants then go to a different discord server or something.

in california, there is no need to keep exotic ants. There is a near endless supply of some of the best ants in the world, and the best variety of ants in the US by far, even if it was legal in california to have exotic ants it be pointless.

 

Doesn't change the fact, as I heavily pointed out, discord being so fanatical about it and banning people who have exotic ants that don't even talk about it with anyone on the discord. You may choose to ignore it being an AAK member, but you are actually part of making the underground exotic ant trade worse, because as I said, it just makes every exotic ant keeper lie about having any at all, making the entire situation far worse (especially ecologically) than it otherwise would.

[CheetoLord02]

As a member of AAK I can confirm that I don't spend my whole life searching for illegal ants on the internet and hunting members down. If you don't like not being able to talk about your illegal ants then go to a different discord server or something.

Well funnily enough that's exactly what I did... and I got banned for it. Makes me wonder why we don't just skip that step and use a different server from the very beginning.

[CheetoLord02]

in california, there is no need to keep exotic ants. There is a near endless supply of some of the best ants in the world, and the best variety of ants in the US by far, even if it was legal in california to have exotic ants it be pointless.

 

 

 

 

Doesn't change the fact, as I heavily pointed out, discord being so fanatical about it and banning people who have exotic ants that don't even talk about it with anyone on the discord. You may choose to ignore it being an AAK member, but you are actually part of making the underground exotic ant trade worse, because as I said, it just makes every exotic ant keeper lie about having any at all, making the entire situation far worse (especially ecologically) than it otherwise would.

 

Last time I checked California doesn't have Atta, or Cephalotes, or Odontomachus, or polygynous Novomessor, or Acropyga, or Trachymyrmex... not even top 3 for most native species in a state.... yikes. Don't get me wrong, California has fine ants, but c'mon. Y'all really can't compete 

P.S.: Having fun with your Linepithema?     

Edited by CheetoLord02, November 28 2020 - 12:35 PM.

[Vendayn]

 

in california, there is no need to keep exotic ants. There is a near endless supply of some of the best ants in the world, and the best variety of ants in the US by far, even if it was legal in california to have exotic ants it be pointless.

 

 

 

 

Doesn't change the fact, as I heavily pointed out, discord being so fanatical about it and banning people who have exotic ants that don't even talk about it with anyone on the discord. You may choose to ignore it being an AAK member, but you are actually part of making the underground exotic ant trade worse, because as I said, it just makes every exotic ant keeper lie about having any at all, making the entire situation far worse (especially ecologically) than it otherwise would.

 

Last time I checked California doesn't have Atta, or Cephalotes, or Odontomachus, or polygynous Novomessor, or Acropyga, or Trachymyrmex... not even top 3 for most native species in a state.... yikes. Don't get me wrong, California has fine ants, but c'mon. Y'all really can't compete 

P.S.: Having fun with your Linepithema?     

 

Atta are cool, but we got Acromyrmex versicolor which I personally like better simply cause their numbers are vastly more manageable. We got novomessor, dunno about poly novo but we got them. We got tiny fungus growers that are to me equally as cool as Trachmyrmex, just no one keeps them because kinda cryptic and hard to find. Not even many people know about them. I always forget the genus name of them, but they are tiny and super fun to keep, on par with my Acromyrmex I had to be honest (but I do like tiny/small ants). They were a lot easier and they only died at the time because Argentine ants killed them  

 

We even got Neivamyrmex (granted other states have them too), not well liked among ant keepers to keep and I never had them, but they are amazing to watch. I mean, there is way too many species to list and pretty much find them all once you leave cities (which are dominated by solenopsis invicta and argentine ants). California outside the cities has more choice of ants than any state in the US.

 

With that said...seen people occasionally post they keep exotics in California and other states. Am I gonna go on a crusade against them and get them banned them from everywhere they go and degrade and berate them? Make them feel not even human? Nope.

[ArmansAnts]

Arizona objectively has more ants and ant diversity than California, it's just math. Also Atta are dumb easy to limit in numbers.

[Manitobant]

Guys lets not crash the thread for a CA vs AZ debate and stay on topic.


One of the things i hate about the AAK witch hunt is how when they discover you have exotics they humiliate and shame you for it. They make you watch everyone laugh before banning you.

[Vendayn]

Guys lets not crash the thread for a CA vs AZ debate and stay on topic.


One of the things i hate about the AAK witch hunt is how when they discover you have exotics they humiliate and shame you for it. They make you watch everyone laugh before banning you.

yes, this is one of the problems that is an exact replica of the witch hunts of the olden times in the US...different reasons, same exact behavior. Just without the killing obviously. But the people behave the same exact way as back then, in this case if they see someone who is on their discord post somewhere they have exotics and ban them for it. Leads to that lying and underground movement as I said, which is counter benefit to their original intent.

 

Just look at this forum, if someone in the US has exotics. They degrade and ruin the thread (mostly its the persons own journals where it happens). Their common strategy is to silencing them (which is part of the witch hunt mind set that arises in witch hunts) and either making the entire thread off topic and ruined to where they get it shut down/locked, or keep asking for it to be banned/locked. Very common strategy of the members there for those who they perceive (whether true or not) as having exotic ants.

[DDD101DDD]

 

As a member of AAK I can confirm that I don't spend my whole life searching for illegal ants on the internet and hunting members down. If you don't like not being able to talk about your illegal ants then go to a different discord server or something.

Well funnily enough that's exactly what I did... and I got banned for it. Makes me wonder why we don't just skip that step and use a different server from the very beginning.

 

Yeah that's good if you want to do that.

[Manitobant]

Punishment should be reserved for the USDA agents, not random discord users.

[AnthonyP163]

I mean. You got the ants illegally. That's breaking the law. It makes sense to be punished.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Are you the police? Is the Ants & Ant Keeping Discord server the law? No? So then why is there a punishment? Do you think those who smoke marijuana should be banned as well? Anyone who speeds on the roads, too?

 

The rule there isn't to enforce a punishment, and it doesn't stop people from doing what they want. So that pretty much means it's useless. All that banning someone for keeping illegal ants does is cater to a set of morals that a group of people have agreed on. Banning those who do not apply these morals to their husbandry causes what I believe is called an 'echo chamber'. 

[PogoQueen]

Smhmh bunch of drama queens. Get it? Because we like ants? And they have... queens...

[B_rad0806]

Smhmh bunch of drama queens. Get it? Because we like ants? And they have... queens...

Pogoqueen do be crackin jokes

[DDD101DDD]

The people getting banned for keeping ants illegal are being banned for breaking the server rules, not because they broke the law.

[AnthonyP163]

The people getting banned for keeping ants illegal are being banned for breaking the server rules, not because they broke the law.

 

Actually, most aren't banned for directly breaking this rule. 

 

This is the rule. Most people follow this rule, and when they purchase ants illegally, they avoid sharing it or posting about it on the server. They will still get banned if someone knows about them purchasing illegal ants. This is what 'witch hunt' is often referring to.

Edited by AnthonyP163, November 28 2020 - 2:25 PM.

[DDD101DDD]

 

The people getting banned for keeping ants illegal are being banned for breaking the server rules, not because they broke the law.

 

Actually, most aren't banned for directly breaking this rule. 

 

This is the rule. Most people follow this rule, and when they purchase ants illegally, they avoid sharing it or posting about it on the server. They will still get banned if someone knows about them purchasing illegal ants. This is what 'witch hunt' is often referring to.

 

That's actually a good point.