162 replies to this topic

[madbiologist]

I've been here awhile now, and I know a few people who are also on the server, but the vast majority aren't, and I've heard many also don't like it. Why?

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Edited by madbiologist, September 23 2020 - 8:30 AM.

[ponerinecat]

From my experience it's a pretty friendly place, get a lot of trade deals and offers on it too. 

[ANTdrew]

I just don’t really know what it is.

[Da_NewAntOnTheBlock]

People just don't treat it the same?

[Martialis]

We don’t?

[madbiologist]

Antdude said he'd never join the server. I asked why, and he said to ask here, and use a question like the one above.

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[ponerinecat]

We don’t?

I'm guessing most are unaware of it, but there are quite a few who say to boycott it. and others who just don't want to join it, for various reasons.

[Ants_Dakota]

Is this a specific server, or is this just the ant server. I have also noticed it, but never knew what it meant.

Edited by Ants_Dakota, March 23 2020 - 6:09 PM.

[madbiologist]

Is this a specific server, or is this just the ant server. I have also noticed it, but never knew what it meant.

What do you mean the ant server?

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[Ants_Dakota]

Well, what exactly is the ants and antkeeping discord server? 

That is what i am trying to ask.

[Ferox_Formicae]

Discord makes me uncomfortable. Old friends who now hate me a jerks to me over it, I've seen some extremely disturbing images random people sent me on Discord (though I can't say Ant_Dude hasn't done the same...), it brings back memories from when I was still in a deep depression, and above all, my ex broke up with me over it... So yeah, I don't really do Discord anymore...

[madbiologist]

Well, what exactly is the ants and antkeeping discord server?

That is what i am trying to ask.

It's a community of 3 thousand people on discord, who like ants. As far as I know, it's the largest experienced antkeeping community. (Antscanada doesn't count).

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[FSTP]

for me its not that I don't like the ant keeping discord. Its that I don't like discord in general. The times I do go there the people are nice and it is a fine community. If only (imo) it wasn't on discord. 

 

 

Edit: AntsCanada never counts, lol. 

Edited by FSTP, March 23 2020 - 6:21 PM.

[OhNoNotAgain]

Aside from getting jumped all over on one topic  it's mostly been okay. There are strong opinions and information (plus noise) flows rather fast (or not at all), and it's got a vibe that may not be everyone's cup of tea.

I don't mind dropping by on occasion - which is about all the time I have these days.

[madbiologist]

Aside from getting jumped all over on one topic it's mostly been okay. There are strong opinions and information (plus noise) flows rather fast (or not at all), and it's got a vibe that may not be everyone's cup of tea.
I don't mind dropping by on occasion - which is about all the time I have these days.

What is the one topic it's jumped all over about?

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[AnthonyP163]

On the Ants & Antkeeping server.

 

I'm obviously biased but the mod team tends to ban those who don't agree with them on antkeeping laws around the world (namely transport laws), but mostly in the US. As one example, someone was banned for selling to someone in state, who then left the state and sold the ants to others. 

 

It's a nice place to chat and I haven't been on there in a while, but from what I hear there's still the same policies in place and they may be even stricter. They're entitled to have an opinion but IMO it is a little excessive to ban anyone who disagrees. 

 

To be clear, I am not encouraging or condoning illegal trade or sales of ants, I'm simply commenting on the way that the server authorities treat those who do it or tolerate it. I also have many friends on there, it's a nice place but could use some loosening up.

[madbiologist]

On the Ants & Antkeeping server.

I'm obviously biased but the mod team tends to ban those who don't agree with them on antkeeping laws around the world (namely transport laws), but mostly in the US. As one example, someone was banned for selling to someone in state, who then left the state and sold the ants to others.

It's a nice place to chat and I haven't been on there in a while, but from what I hear there's still the same policies in place and they may be even stricter. They're entitled to have an opinion but IMO it is a little excessive to ban anyone who disagrees.

To be clear, I am not encouraging or condoning illegal trade or sales of ants, I'm simply commenting on the way that the server authorities treat those who do it or tolerate it. I also have many friends on there, it's a nice place but could use some loosening up.

While I can't comment on laws in other countries, the laws regarding the transportation and sale of ants in the US can be very muddy, and in my opinion, some parts do need revision and change. However, the very stringent laws we have today are certainly there for a reason, they just overcompensated a little. Invasive species have been a huge issue in the past, and still are today. The reason Ants and AK follows the current rules so strictly, although I believe they also don't resort to an immediate ban, is because they are trying to make change. They keep the support of entomologists and APHIS personnel by following the laws, and they have also been communicating with them to try and change the laws in a better way than they are currently.

On the point of banning in different cases, these cases are all handled individually by the server team. Regardless of who holds the moral high ground, in most cases there is no clear line between what should be acceptable and what should not be acceptable. As the owners and moderators of the server, it's up to them to decide how to handle things like this, and in most of the server's opinion, they've done a good job with it. Keeping ants without regards to the laws will not get the laws changed, all it will do is prove to the lawmakers is that we, as a community, aren't capable of discussing the laws, and seeking change in a legal matter. Yes, I do think that I should be able to bring species across state lines if they are native to both states, but I'm not going to do it unless the laws are changed because restrictions have already been lessening recently, and if we break the laws at this point, they may stop lessening, or even revert to where they were previously.

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Edited by madbiologist, March 23 2020 - 9:00 PM.

[AnthonyP163]

 

On the Ants & Antkeeping server.

I'm obviously biased but the mod team tends to ban those who don't agree with them on antkeeping laws around the world (namely transport laws), but mostly in the US. As one example, someone was banned for selling to someone in state, who then left the state and sold the ants to others.

It's a nice place to chat and I haven't been on there in a while, but from what I hear there's still the same policies in place and they may be even stricter. They're entitled to have an opinion but IMO it is a little excessive to ban anyone who disagrees.

To be clear, I am not encouraging or condoning illegal trade or sales of ants, I'm simply commenting on the way that the server authorities treat those who do it or tolerate it. I also have many friends on there, it's a nice place but could use some loosening up.

While I can't comment on laws in other countries, the laws regarding the transportation and sale of ants in the US can be very muddy, and in my opinion, some parts do need revision and change. However, the very stringent laws we have today are certainly there for a reason, they just overcompensated a little. Invasive species have been a huge issue in the past, and still are today. The reason Ants and AK follows the current rules so strictly, although I believe they also don't resort to an immediate ban, is because they are trying to make change. They keep the support of entomologists and APHIS personnel by following the laws, and they have also been communicating with them to try and change the laws in a better way than they are currently.

On the point of banning in different cases, these cases are all handled individually by the server team. Regardless of who holds the moral high ground, in most cases there is no clear line between what should be acceptable and what should not be acceptable. As the owners and moderators of the server, it's up to them to decide how to handle things like this, and in most of the server's opinion, they've done a good job with it. Keeping ants without regards to the laws will not get the laws changed, all it will do is prove to the lawmakers is that we, as a community, aren't capable of discussing the laws, and seeking change in a legal matter. Yes, I do think that I should be able to bring species across state lines if they are native to both states, but I'm not going to do it unless the laws are changed because restrictions have already been lessening recently, and if we break the laws at this point, they may stop lessening, or even revert to where they were previously.

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They do resort to immediate ban. 

 

The changes to the law have not been a result of them banning a few antkeepers from his server, the changes to the law (the list of legal-to-trade species) is not affected by the server. In the big picture, and in most cases, it is unreasonable to ban someone from a server because you don't like what they do in their own time. You say that keeping ants without regards to the law will not get the law changed, but this is the reason why it is changing. No, I do not want to say "keep illegal ants to protest them being illegal, but the truth they wouldn't be changing if nobody had any objections. The USDA has not made some sort of deal with the antkeeping community for us to behave, and they shouldn't. They should base the laws on what is reasonable and fair, instead of the behavior of just a few ant hobbyists.

 

My post was simply explaining why some of us are against how the server is run. I'm not here to argue about the ethics of antkeeping, that has been done in many other threads. 

[Mdrogun]

I used to be a big part of the Ants & Antkeeping server on Discord. I think I was the third person to join it, and I was always one of its most active members. Somewhere between 1-2 years ago they found out that I was trading and selling ants illegally.

 

The main reason I did it was for the money, but I also enjoyed getting cool ants as well. I never directly tried to bring it to the Ants & Antkeeping server, but me being such an active member there, with many close friends, it inevitably was shared on the server. There were a select few people I hid it from, mainly the admin, because I knew how they felt about it.

 

The admin and most of his team have always seemed to morally despise illegal trading. They are completely allowed to have this opinion. However, when they found out about my illegal activities, you can imagine their reaction. They first interrogated me and then banned me. I think there was also some level of betrayal and feelings being hurt, because at the time, I was pretty good friends with them

 

To be honest, I handled "getting caught" really poorly, and I still regret some of the decisions I made. I was a lot less mature back then. This likely antagonized them even more. At the time it was where 80% of my social interaction came from, since I was so heavily involved, and I think I was just really scared to be banned, even though I knew those were the consequences for what I had been doing.

 

I wouldn't have an issue with anything they had done if they had just banned me and washed their hands of the situation. However, what happened next appalled me. They spent the next month digging through all my messages and interactions. Anyone that had any knowledge of anything illegal I was doing and hadn't reported it was attacked and banned as well, some who I didn't even consider friends or had any desire to participate in anything illegal. I still feel like that was really unfair to those people. While I didn't have any power officially, it was clear that I had strong relationships with almost everyone who did, and I think that prevented many people from being willing to take action against me. Many of the people banned were also incredibly active on there, and at the time, it felt like the Jews were being kicked out of Jerusalem  . The more active you are, statistically, you're just more likely to run into something not permitted happening.

 

From what I've gathered, people who don't like the server tend to feel that it is incredibly authoritarian and conformist. There are strict opinions and ideas you must stick to, and if you argue or stray too far from what's acceptable, your days in that community are numbered.

 

I can only speak for my own experience, but I would like to emphasize that this is not a normal situation. Instead of being like a judicial system, where either you broke x law or you didn't, some people got more leeway than others.  I remember back when the whole fiasco happened with my illegal trading, it was very apparent that the more active, knowledgeable and popular you were, the lower the burden of proof was, and the less the punishments were. I remember there were people who seemed guilty of something that got banned, but people who were guilty of the same thing that didn't. The rules are specifically designed to give a lot of liberty to moderators.

 

One way or another, the USDA did end up finding out about my illegal trading. They sent out two people to talk to me. They weren't angry at me, they just wanted to help me bring my illegal activities onto the legal side of things. They were both really friendly guys, and I still keep in touch with them. 

 

On a personal note, I wish this is what A&AK would of understood about me. I never had any malicious intent, and I did truly feel bad lying to people I considered my friends. I was a high school kid that had the option of shipping a couple dozen packages a month, or spending all of my free time working at McDonald's making $9 an hour. All the while getting "cool", exotic species for myself. I'm not trying to excuse breaking the law, but I don't feel, even now, that most people at that maturity level would act differently.

 

Overall, if the A&AK server fits you, it's a great place to be. There are a lot of friendships and relationships to be formed there. I think we see a lot of people that don't fit into A&AK, and instead of being on there, they come to other places like Formiculture, Reddit, Facebook, or even other Discord ant servers. This is probably why the majority of the "outside" community seems to dislike A&AK. These communities are a lot less tightly controlled. You can express pretty much any opinion, within reason, and not get in trouble. I could write a post on here about how I think it's okay to drive your ants across state lines, and I'm not going to have Drew yell at me and try to ban my IP.

 

I tried to be as unbiased as possible here, but I know that's impossible. 

Edited by Mdrogun, March 23 2020 - 10:47 PM.

[drtrmiller]

I'm not sure I agree with your premise that the vast majority of people here do not like the other communities; there is a lot of crossover.

 

The many separate groups of antkeeping hobbyists reflect the diversity of attitudes and social mores of their members.  Each community has a slightly different way of doing things, and some personalities are more compatible with the membership of some groups than with others.