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Not Temnothorax ambiguus? Catsnants - Jasper IN (8-30-2020) - Possibly an undescribed species

Started By CatsnAnts , Aug 30 2020 5:00 PM

Best Answer CatsnAnts , February 8 2023 - 3:53 PM

Ya definitely not T. curvispinosus, I keep T. curvispinosus and they look completely different. Also what camera do you use? I have a camera that can get photos of that quality on Camponotus, but it can barely focus on Temnothorax.


You are correct, here is the antweb page for them:
https://www.antweb.o...03&rank=species

Mathew has been working on this species for a while, so he helped me to identify them a couple years back.

Also, I wrote a whole guide on how I do macro photography (mostly for myself to relearn when I inevitably forget, like right now). Please ignore the cringiness, I’m not quite sure what I was on when writing it:
https://www.formicul...s/?fromsearch=1 Go to the full post


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#1 Offline CatsnAnts - Posted August 30 2020 - 5:00 PM

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At first, I thought these queens were 100% Temnothorax ambiguus, however, once workers arrived I noticed that they had black spots on their gasters, which T. ambiguus do not have. These queens are much smaller than my T. curvispinosus queens, and the workers don’t match T. ambiguus, so what other options do I have?

(I can get better photos tomorrow)

IMG 7324
IMG 7339
IMG 7331
IMG 7343

Edited by CatsnAnts, September 1 2020 - 8:40 AM.

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#2 Offline Antkid12 - Posted August 30 2020 - 5:06 PM

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Temnothorax duloticus?


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Ants I have: Tapinoma sessile(2 queen colony). RED MORPH Camponotus neacticus(now has pupae!), Tetramorium immigrans (x3), Aphaenogaster sp, Temnothorax sp, Brachymyrmex sp.   possibly infertile   :(,  Ponera pennsylvanica, and Pheidole morrisi!  :yahoo: 

 

Other insects: Polistes sp. Queen

                    

Ants I need: Pheidole sp., Trachymyrmex sp., Crematogaster cerasi , Dorymyrmex sp. Most wanted: Pheidole morrisii

 

                    

                   

 

 

#3 Offline CatsnAnts - Posted August 30 2020 - 5:10 PM

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Temnothorax duloticus?


No, I have a colony of T. duloticus, and they look much different. Good guess though.
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#4 Offline Aaron567 - Posted August 30 2020 - 6:39 PM

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Can you try to get some photos of the workers' propodeal spines?


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#5 Offline CatsnAnts - Posted August 30 2020 - 6:46 PM

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Can you try to get some photos of the workers' propodeal spines?

 

Of course! I’ll snap some when I get home tomorrow afternoon.


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#6 Offline CatsnAnts - Posted August 31 2020 - 12:34 PM

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I finally got some pictures of the worker(s), but it was at the expense of one queen escaping, never to be seen again  :*( -   However, I'm almost certain she was unmated, so not a big deal.

 

Anyways, after examining these photos, it's clear to say that this is not T. ambiguus nor T. curvispinosus because the propodeal spines are really stubby, unlike the long spines of the species just mentioned. I'm stumped on what they could be:

 

IMG 7458
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IMG 7430
IMG 7421
IMG 7420

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#7 Offline Kaelwizard - Posted August 31 2020 - 12:56 PM

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Is it out of the question that they are a new species? Have you looked at what species live in your area?
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#8 Offline CatsnAnts - Posted August 31 2020 - 12:58 PM

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Is it out of the question that they are a new species? Have you looked at what species live in your area?


I was hoping somebody would mention that!

Here’s a list of every possible species in Indiana, and I didn’t find a single match:
https://www.formicul...indiana-antweb/

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#9 Offline Spazmops - Posted August 31 2020 - 1:09 PM

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Is it out of the question that they are a new species? Have you looked at what species live in your area?


I was hoping somebody would mention that!

Here’s a list of every possible species in Indiana, and I didn’t find a single match:
https://www.formicul...indiana-antweb/

 

It could be a newly introduced or very rare species, and undiscovered species (highly unlikely) or a weird morph/coloration.


Co-owner and founder of Mountain Myrmeculture and The Menagerie Discord Server. 

Ants I have:

1 Formica fusca group- 0 workers

1 Tetramorium immigrans colony-20 workers

1 Dorymyrmex insanus- 1 queen, used to have workers

 

1 large P. occidentalis colony- around 50 workers, plenty of brood

 

 

#10 Offline CatsnAnts - Posted August 31 2020 - 1:36 PM

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Is it out of the question that they are a new species? Have you looked at what species live in your area?


I was hoping somebody would mention that!
Here’s a list of every possible species in Indiana, and I didn’t find a single match:https://www.formicul...indiana-antweb/
It could be a newly introduced or very rare species, and undiscovered species (highly unlikely) or a weird morph/coloration.

I doubt that it would be a newly introduced species considering I’ve checked other species found from areas around Indiana as well, and it wouldn’t be likely for me to find so many queens if it were new. Even if it was a rare species, they would still be described and I would have found them. Color morphs of this magnitude seem very unlikely, and the propodeal spines of these ants don’t match any species that have a similar color pattern. I wouldn’t be surprised if it were an undescribed species since it could have been easily overlooked as I almost did.

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#11 Offline CatsnAnts - Posted August 31 2020 - 1:49 PM

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Also, these ants appear to have a “belt” around their gaster instead of two distinct spots.

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#12 Offline TechAnt - Posted August 31 2020 - 4:17 PM

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I think this may be a new species? I mean it’s possible based on what you have said.
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My Ants:
(x1) Campontous semitstaceus ~20 workers, 1 Queen
(x1) Camponotus vicinus ~10 workers, 1 Queen (all black variety)
(x1) Tetramorium immigrans ~100 workers, 1 Queen
(x1) Myrmercocystus mexicanus -1 Queen
(x2) Mymercocystus mimcus -1 Queen
(x1) Mymercocystus testaceus ~45 workers, 1 Queen

#13 Offline NickAnter - Posted August 31 2020 - 4:17 PM

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I too am stumped... This might be something to send to a myrmecologist.


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Hi there! I went on a 6 month or so hiatus, in part due, and in part cause of the death of my colonies. 

However, I went back to the Sierras, and restarted my collection, which is now as follows:

Aphaenogaster uinta, Camponotus vicinus, Camponotus modoc, Formica cf. aserva, Formica cf. micropthalma, Formica cf. manni, Formica subpolita, Formica cf. subaenescens, Lasius americanus, Manica invidia, Pogonomyrmex salinus, Pogonomyrmex sp. 1, Solenopsis validiuscula, & Solenopsis sp. 3 (new Sierra variant). 

#14 Offline TechAnt - Posted August 31 2020 - 4:18 PM

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I too am stumped... This might be something to send to a myrmecologist.


Agreed. CatsnAnts you should contact a local researcher.
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My Ants:
(x1) Campontous semitstaceus ~20 workers, 1 Queen
(x1) Camponotus vicinus ~10 workers, 1 Queen (all black variety)
(x1) Tetramorium immigrans ~100 workers, 1 Queen
(x1) Myrmercocystus mexicanus -1 Queen
(x2) Mymercocystus mimcus -1 Queen
(x1) Mymercocystus testaceus ~45 workers, 1 Queen

#15 Offline NickAnter - Posted August 31 2020 - 4:20 PM

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Actually. This looks like Temnothorax bradleyi. New state record.


https://www.antwiki....thorax_bradleyi


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Hi there! I went on a 6 month or so hiatus, in part due, and in part cause of the death of my colonies. 

However, I went back to the Sierras, and restarted my collection, which is now as follows:

Aphaenogaster uinta, Camponotus vicinus, Camponotus modoc, Formica cf. aserva, Formica cf. micropthalma, Formica cf. manni, Formica subpolita, Formica cf. subaenescens, Lasius americanus, Manica invidia, Pogonomyrmex salinus, Pogonomyrmex sp. 1, Solenopsis validiuscula, & Solenopsis sp. 3 (new Sierra variant). 

#16 Offline TechAnt - Posted August 31 2020 - 4:33 PM

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Actually. This looks like Temnothorax bradleyi. New state record.
https://www.antwiki....thorax_bradleyi

Are you sure, the gaster shape and the color of the gaster don’t seem right. But maybe it’s just a regional difference and environmental factors too.

Still think this should be sent to a local researcher to confirm. As our guesses seem everywhere.

Edited by TechAnt, August 31 2020 - 4:34 PM.

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My Ants:
(x1) Campontous semitstaceus ~20 workers, 1 Queen
(x1) Camponotus vicinus ~10 workers, 1 Queen (all black variety)
(x1) Tetramorium immigrans ~100 workers, 1 Queen
(x1) Myrmercocystus mexicanus -1 Queen
(x2) Mymercocystus mimcus -1 Queen
(x1) Mymercocystus testaceus ~45 workers, 1 Queen

#17 Offline CatsnAnts - Posted August 31 2020 - 4:35 PM

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Actually. This looks like Temnothorax bradleyi. New state record.
https://www.antwiki....thorax_bradleyi


No, the ocelli on T. bradleyi are far smaller compared to these queens, and they also lack any markings on their gaster. The eyes are also a bit to small on T. bradleyi. But what do I know lol.
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#18 Offline NickAnter - Posted August 31 2020 - 4:42 PM

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Upon closer inspection, you are correct. They were the closest match I found.


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Hi there! I went on a 6 month or so hiatus, in part due, and in part cause of the death of my colonies. 

However, I went back to the Sierras, and restarted my collection, which is now as follows:

Aphaenogaster uinta, Camponotus vicinus, Camponotus modoc, Formica cf. aserva, Formica cf. micropthalma, Formica cf. manni, Formica subpolita, Formica cf. subaenescens, Lasius americanus, Manica invidia, Pogonomyrmex salinus, Pogonomyrmex sp. 1, Solenopsis validiuscula, & Solenopsis sp. 3 (new Sierra variant). 

#19 Offline Aaron567 - Posted August 31 2020 - 7:27 PM

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To me this looks like T. ambiguus with a weird curvispinosus coloration. T. curvispinosus' typical dark gaster markings were used as one of the key features in separating them from ambiguus by Wesson & Wesson (1940). Your ants definitely appear to have the shorter spines of ambiguus but I wonder if ambiguus is able to have that coloration. I haven't looked into it much but there might be some more literature on ambiguus out there.


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#20 Offline CatsnAnts - Posted September 1 2020 - 2:26 AM

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To me this looks like T. ambiguus with a weird curvispinosus coloration. T. curvispinosus' typical dark gaster markings were used as one of the key features in separating them from ambiguus by Wesson & Wesson (1940). Your ants definitely appear to have the shorter spines of ambiguus but I wonder if ambiguus is able to have that coloration. I haven't looked into it much but there might be some more literature on ambiguus out there.


I’ll try and see what I can find! Also, is it just me or does it seem like the propodeal spines on these ants are shorter than on T. ambiguus and more closely resemble (as an example) the spines on T. schaumii?
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