64 replies to this topic

[YsTheAnt]

Guys if people were really blindly throwing Camponotus fragilis onto every Camponotus species we find (which is what Cheeto is saying happens here in Cali) that’s one thing, but multiple people here have disproved all of his claims in regards to what species we actually have.

His entire argument is based off of 1-2 identifications. He has contradicted his source of these identifications. He is using a key that is based off of the premises established in Dr. Snelling’s descriptions of Camponotus festinatus complex species. Yet he has presumed that a lot of the details in Dr. Snelling’s descriptions are false, such as the descriptions on the ranges and sizes of certain species.

Accusations based upon logic that is contradictory itself is idiotic. All of the evidence brought up here has been fairly indicative that whatever people are selling as Camponotus fragilis IS in fact Camponotus fragilis.

As I said before, if this is going to be an issue of misidentifying, so be it. But so far there has been no concrete evidence that the sellers you have accused are in fact misidentifying their species. The only concrete images and evidence here indicate that they have been correctly identifying them all along.

Before believing that Cheeto’s baseless claims and accusations are true, please also consider that these claims have no rhyme or reason to back them. They are based off of nothing but a single ID, using a key that is based off of information that Cheeto has presumed is false anyway.

[gcsnelling]

Examination of the holotypes would not be needed, all one would need to do is compared the disputed material with confidently identified material. In addition I would only work with wild caught specimens (preferably major workers since they tend to have the best defined features). I have collected C. fragilis in Apple Valley, California. People also seem to be forgetting the variability of some of these features used which is why it is vital to examine more than one specimen and also remember that there are often areas of overlap in species ranges. The ants tend not to read the literature.

Edited by gcsnelling, August 9 2020 - 7:19 AM.

[Serafine]

Meanwhile in Eurasia they're selling species that don't even exist (Camponotus xiangban)...

[YsTheAnt]

+ you were on my side during the incident. Reason why you changed sides, or is it because I haven't been there in a year? 

 

Ah yes, the good year old screenshot taken out of context, classic. First making a thread about an ID and then degrading it to throwing around inflammatory screenshots because you realize you were wrong.

 

Anyway, the reason I was saying this was because I didn't know the whole story. At the time I had trusted you as a seller and was a bit put off by the ban, which is why I was siding with you at the time. I still hold no personal grudge against you, but at the same time to me it is quite clear that what you did was wrong.

 

Going back to me "changing sides", over the past year I have seen more and more of both sides of the argument, and I realized that the logic used by the mods on AAK was pretty solid. At the time of the incident, I just didn't know the full story. You painted a very different picture than what actually happened. Once soul and other members of the discord explained their side (which happened a while after our conversation), I realized their actions were not only reasonable but justified, and that I was wrong for making statements about their decisions without knowing the whole story.

 

Again I have had multiple conversations with him about this, and it is quite clear that what he did was not wrong. I made those statements in a misinformed state of mind, my apologies.

 

 

It seems like you guys are having a blast taking private conversations out of context then using them to degrade and slander other people. Any other old dirt you would like to pull up? 

[ponerinecat]

What even is this thread    Getting the feeling it's personal hostility loosely masked by misidentification and "scamming" and whatnot. Misidentification is definitely a problem and we should take steps to help people solve it, but in the antkeeping world it isn't something of a crime if the vendor genuinely doesnt know that the ID is wrong/doesn't have the time/patience/knowledge to go key out their ants. Care for the 2 species should be extremely similar as well, and people wanting fragilis but getting absqualator also isn't a problem as they look very similar. (And people generally want fragilis for the color.)