64 replies to this topic

[PogoQueen]

This argument can easily be settled if cheetolord offers proof of what he is talking about. Do you, cheetolord, have pictures of your “fragilis” queen or major workers? Sirjordan gave you picture proof of his claims. You have not offered a picture of your queen next to a ruler, or a picture of the majors hairs in the colony. Please, pictures? Both of size and defining physiological characteristics of your specimen.

[ArmansAnts]

What you are saying is that not only is every person that ID’ed their ants as Camponotus fragilis in Southern California is wrong, but that Dr. Snelling’s descriptions of Camponotus festinatus’ size and both C. festinatus and C. microps range were false as well.

 

Are you even reading what Cheeto is writing? He literally said that he does not believe everybody is wrong, but rather that they just need to pay more attention when identifying.

 

Furthermore, the only claims that I made regarding Californian antkeepers is that they need to pay more attention to the species that they are catching, as evidence shows that C. absquatulator is much more common in California.

Edited by ArmansAnts, August 8 2020 - 8:45 PM.

[CheetoLord02]

 

 

If what you are saying is true, and 15mm C. fragilis exist, then C. festinatus should be significantly larger. Please, find us an 18mm Camponotus festinatus queen before making claims about all the antkeepers in a state .

Simply because 15mm C. fragilis exist does not automatically mean that C. festinatus will be 3mm larger. This is a false dichotomy. The keys only mention that C. festinatus is "larger than fragilis", however they never mention how much larger. I am positive that in areas where C. fragilis queens are 14-16mm, C. festinatus will match that size. The paper linked before even shows that C. festinatus are only longer in the thorax measurement: "ML 3.85-4.20 vs. 4.51-4.92" (fragilis vs festinatus)
Furthermore, the only claims that I made regarding Californian antkeepers is that they need to pay more attention to the species that they are catching, as evidence shows that C. absquatulator is much more common in California. Even in the paper linked by Jordan, it confirms this saying "Two smaller species in this complex are found at lower elevations west of the range of C. festinatus: C. fragilis and C. absquatulator sp.n. The latter is limited to the Sonoran Desert portions of southern California"

Please do not make these posts if you have no way to back them up.

Well, I do.

When the species C. absquatulator and C. microps were described (By Dr. Snelling), the westernmost ranges for both didn’t even extend beyond the borders of Arizona.

What you are saying is that not only is every person that ID’ed their ants as Camponotus fragilis in Southern California is wrong, but that Dr. Snelling’s descriptions of Camponotus festinatus’ size and both C. festinatus and C. microps range were false as well.

All this based upon one ID off of a key that was most likely based off of Dr. Snellings work, which you have presumed is false anyway.

If this isn’t contradictory enough to invalidate these accusations, I’m not sure what is.

 

>When the species C. absquatulator and C. microps were described (By Dr. Snelling), the westernmost ranges for both didn’t even extend beyond the borders of Arizona.
Really? Because the paper describing C. absquatulator says this:
"Two smaller species in this complex are found at lower elevations west of the range of C. festinatus: C. fragilis and C. absquatulator sp.n. The latter is limited to the Sonoran Desert portions of southern California."
Furthermore, Antmaps.org further supports my point. C. absquatulator has 15 records in CA and 1 in AZ. C. fragilis has 22 records in CA and 201 in AZ. It is far more likely that I have fragilis and you have absquatulator, regardless of size.
"United States, Mexico. Camponotus fragilis occurs over most of the Lower California peninsula as far north on the Gulf of California coast at least to Bahía de los Angeles and northwest into southern California via San Diego County. It is also present on most, if not all, the islands of the Gulf of California and in the State of Sonora and north into Arizona (Tempe, Maricopa Co.,)"
This quote shows that they are hardly present north of the Mexican border in the far west, and only extend north into eastern CA and AZ.

>What you are saying is that not only is every person that ID’ed their ants as Camponotus fragilis in Southern California is wrong, but that Dr. Snelling’s descriptions of Camponotus festinatus’ size and both C. festinatus and C. microps range were false as well.
 

 

It is CLEAR that sellers from California have looked at this issue before and willfully ignored it. This is unacceptable in my eyes. Even if the populations of both species in California are nearly identical, willingly selling a colony as a species that they are not is wholly dishonest.

>All this based upon one ID off of a key that was most likely based off of Dr. Snellings work, which you have presumed is false anyway.
I've been using this key just as much as you guys have been. I wouldn't be quoting it if I though it was false.

Edited by CheetoLord02, August 8 2020 - 8:46 PM.

[YsTheAnt]

 

>All this based upon one ID off of a key that was most likely based off of Dr. Snellings work, which you have presumed is false anyway.
I've been using this key just as much as you guys have been. I wouldn't be quoting it if I though it was false.

 

 

 

Your entire argument here contradicts what Dr. Snelling stated while describing these species in regards to range, but then uses keys based upon these very descriptions to validate your argument.

 

That in on itself is contradictory.

 

I would have no problem with this if you had provided solid proof to back your accusations. Unfortunately, all you have brought forth is one ID based upon information that you have presumed is false to begin with. You then proceeded to use this "ID" to accuse an entire group of sellers of being unethical and immoral. 

 

Seriously, if you are going to make such accusations, at least don't contradict yourself in your first post on the topic.

Edited by YsTheAnt, August 8 2020 - 8:52 PM.

[SleepyAsianAnter]

Not gonna lie, if they're identical, it doesn't really matter.

[PogoQueen]

If you have fragilis please offer picture proof. I would be very interested in pictures of a confirmed c. Fragilis Queen. Saying “I most likely have this” and “you most likely have that” is not proof, that’s an opinion. If you think what Californian sellers have are not fragilis, offer proof of that as well. Buy a colony of “fragilis”, take pictures, post them here. Proof please.

[AnthonyP163]

This argument can easily be settled if cheetolord offers proof of what he is talking about. Do you, cheetolord, have pictures of your “fragilis” queen or major workers? Sirjordan gave you picture proof of his claims. You have not offered a picture of your queen next to a ruler, or a picture of the majors hairs in the colony. Please, pictures? Both of size and defining physiological characteristics of your specimen.

Here are the photos of the majors, with setae along the side of the head, distinguishing them from C. absquatulator. These are the same colonies with the large gynes previously mentioned in this thread. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

>All this based upon one ID off of a key that was most likely based off of Dr. Snellings work, which you have presumed is false anyway.
I've been using this key just as much as you guys have been. I wouldn't be quoting it if I though it was false.

 

 

 

Your entire argument here contradicts what Dr. Snelling stated while describing these species in regards to range, but then uses keys based upon these very descriptions to validate your argument.

 

That in on itself is contradictory.

 

I would have no problem with this if you had provided solid proof to back your accusations. Unfortunately, all you have brought forth is one ID based upon information that you have presumed is false to begin with. You then proceeded to use this "ID" to accuse an entire group of sellers of being unethical and immoral. 

 

Seriously, if you are going to make such accusations, at least don't contradict yourself in your first post on the topic.

 

You've completely ignored multiple points CheetoLord has mentioned. Though CheetoLord's accounts are anecdotal concerning the large gynes, the workers which have been found in colonies with these gynes are in fact C. fragilis. CheetoLord is simply pointing out that sellers do not care to ID their 'C. fragilis', which is definitely immoral. 

 

EDIT: I believe the post was meant to clarify and invoke thought, not to attack anyone.

Edited by AnthonyP163, August 8 2020 - 9:17 PM.

[Nanahira]

Not gonna lie, if they're identical, it doesn't really matter.

Selling something as high in demand as Fragilis when it's actually a different species is scamming. C absquatulator isn't even close to as high in demand, and is dishonest to claim it as Fragilis (without getting it thoroughly identified) just to get an easier sale.

It also feels more rewarding to raise the ant that you were expecting instead of some knockoff misidentification.

Edited by 500miles, August 8 2020 - 9:11 PM.

[YsTheAnt]

I'd just like to bring up that the two users here posting inflammatory posts:

 

1. Have never purchased Camponotus fragilis from one of these "scamming" vendors

 

2. Are known to partake and/or instigate illegal trading. Can't be talking about ethics when your selfish actions have risked the hobby as a whole getting shut down.

 

If you are going to make it about taxonomy and ID, fine. Bring up valid proof, something that all your arguments have been lacking in.

 

If you are going to make it about ethics, there is a problem. These vendors have caused little to no damage to the community, and clearly do not have malicious intent. Not one person who has bought Camponotus fragilis from these vendors has been whining like you guys have. In fact, the one person here that actually showed a colony bought from these "scamming" vendors had nothing but positive things to say with their experiences. On the flip side, both of you guys have been involved in illegal trade of exotics, something that can jeopardize the future of the hobby as a whole. While this may be irrelevant, I don't think an argument on ethics coming from people who have done unethical things for their own selfish reasons is valid either way.

[PogoQueen]

Now, proof that what nurbs sells is misidentified. Information from a known illegal antkeeper is not to be trusted, Mr. cheetolord. So we will need pictures. Thank you for the PSA though, I am sure you are not the dishonest type, out to try and slander a well respected antkeeper because you might want to take his client base to sell illegally, or anything.

[AnthonyP163]

I'd just like to bring up that the two users here posting inflammatory posts:

 

1. Have never purchased Camponotus fragilis from one of these "scamming" vendors

 

2. Are known to partake and/or instigate illegal trading. Can't be talking about ethics when your selfish actions have risked the hobby as a whole getting shut down.

 

If you are going to make it about taxonomy and ID, fine. Bring up valid proof, something that all your arguments have been lacking in.

 

If you are going to make it about ethics, there is a problem. These vendors have caused little to no damage to the community, and clearly do not have malicious intent. Not one person who has bought Camponotus fragilis from these vendors has been whining like you guys have. In fact, the one person here that actually showed a colony bought from these "scamming" vendors had nothing but positive things to say with their experiences. On the flip side, both of you guys have been involved in illegal trade of exotics, something that can jeopardize the future of the hobby as a whole. While this may be irrelevant, I don't think an argument on ethics coming from people who have done unethical things for their own selfish reasons is valid either way.

None of us are making inflammatory posts. I do not partake in illegal trading, I simply do not choose to judge someone by it.

 

Don't turn this into an illegal trading thread, please. There's enough of those out there and everyone is tired of it. I see that the post seems like it went on the offense against Californians. I was basically just here to ID specimens he sent to me. I agree with Cheeto, Californian vendors could totally have one species and be calling it another, perhaps some on purpose, perhaps some not. 

 

The post should have been clarified from the beginning. This is not meant to attack anyone. If you must attack others for things not relevant to the post, you are lost.

 

 

Now, proof that what nurbs sells is misidentified. Information from a known illegal antkeeper is not to be trusted, Mr. cheetolord. So we will need pictures. Thank you for the PSA though, I am sure you are not the dishonest type, out to try and slander a well respected antkeeper because you might want to take his client base to sell illegally, or anything.

"Information from a known illegal antkeeper is not to be trusted, Mr. cheetolord.". 

 

Why must this turn into another one of these threads? You're acting like a 'known illegal antkeeper' is subhuman. That has no relevance to this topic at all. 

 

"out to try and slander a well respected antkeeper because you might want to take his client base to sell illegally, or anything."

 

This was not even targetted toward nurbs. 

 

Lets work toward fixing mistakes instead of breaking down into flame-wars.

Edited by AnthonyP163, August 8 2020 - 9:36 PM.

[Nanahira]

I'd just like to bring up that the two users here posting inflammatory posts:

 

1. Have never purchased Camponotus fragilis from one of these "scamming" vendors

 

2. Are known to partake and/or instigate illegal trading. Can't be talking about ethics when your selfish actions have risked the hobby as a whole getting shut down.

 

If you are going to make it about taxonomy and ID, fine. Bring up valid proof, something that all your arguments have been lacking in.

 

If you are going to make it about ethics, there is a problem. These vendors have caused little to no damage to the community, and clearly do not have malicious intent. Not one person who has bought Camponotus fragilis from these vendors has been whining like you guys have. In fact, the one person here that actually showed a colony bought from these "scamming" vendors had nothing but positive things to say with their experiences. On the flip side, both of you guys have been involved in illegal trade of exotics, something that can jeopardize the future of the hobby as a whole. While this may be irrelevant, I don't think an argument on ethics coming from people who have done unethical things for their own selfish reasons is valid either way.

 

Bring up some proof of this "Illegal trading".

last time I remember I got banned from the AAK because collecting 500 queens is valid proof?

 

+ you were on my side during the incident. Reason why you changed sides, or is it because I haven't been there in a year? 

Edited by 500miles, August 8 2020 - 9:45 PM.

[EchoMeter4]

Now, proof that what nurbs sells is misidentified. Information from a known illegal antkeeper is not to be trusted, Mr. cheetolord. So we will need pictures. Thank you for the PSA though, I am sure you are not the dishonest type, out to try and slander a well respected antkeeper because you might want to take his client base to sell illegally, or anything.

Illegal antkeeper =/= Illegal ant distributor 

[PogoQueen]

Proof that the “fragilis” that most people in California are keeping are not fragilis then please. And it was targeted towards him, you’ve collected and posted screenshots of conversations that included only him. And the topic of your illegal antkeeping is relevant, since a dishonest person is putting out a PSA. Please fix your mistake of not offering proof of your claims. Show us pictures.

[SleepyAsianAnter]

 

Not gonna lie, if they're identical, it doesn't really matter.

Selling something as high in demand as Fragilis when it's actually a different species is scamming. C absquatulator isn't even close to as high in demand, and is dishonest to claim it as Fragilis (without getting it thoroughly identified) just to get an easier sale.

It also feels more rewarding to raise the ant that you were expecting instead of some knockoff misidentification.

 

C. Absqualator isn't in demand cause everyone assumes they're fraggles lmao, it's all the same, and considering how most of us don't want to look for hair on an ant, it doesn't really matter at all. 

[Otter]

Now, proof that what nurbs sells is misidentified. Information from a known illegal antkeeper is not to be trusted, Mr. cheetolord. So we will need pictures. Thank you for the PSA though, I am sure you are not the dishonest type, out to try and slander a well respected antkeeper because you might want to take his client base to sell illegally, or anything.

I don't like to participate in this drama but I must say this, just because someone has "traded" (brought back ants he caught) illegally doesnt automatically make everything they say false. To add to this, CheetoLord does not sell any non native ants. All of his ants as of right now are collected in and native to the state of AZ (where he lives). Everyone here acts like trading illegally is worse than murdering someone and that shipping is unethical. Participating in illegal trading is legally and morally wrong for the sole reason of it being illegal, sure ill give you that. But acting like illegal traders are going to get the antkeeping hobby as a whole banned is just idiotic.

[TechAnt]

Ok guys, I have been in the shadows watching this until now. We can’t let touchy subjects turn threads into exotic ant warzone threads or toxic conversations. Can we lower the tensions? Can we keep it friendly please?

I’m only saying this now as the track we are on for this thread will get worse and worse based on what I see most recently.

If your mad at somebody look away, something, cool off for a minute, then respond. I want to keep it civilized, even though I am not directing you in anyway and have no right to, I want to put my input.

Edited by TechAnt, August 8 2020 - 9:55 PM.

[EchoMeter4]

Proof that the “fragilis” that most people in California are keeping are not fragilis then please. And it was targeted towards him, you’ve collected and posted screenshots of conversations that included only him. And the topic of your illegal antkeeping is relevant, since a dishonest person is putting out a PSA. Please fix your mistake of not offering proof of your claims. Show us pictures.

This is in fact false. I was the one that once saw the topic was like oh, maybe the california chat in aak has some context or past conversations on this and got those screenshots, the man that got them wasn't cheetolord but me and  nurbs just happened to be in the conversation I found. 

[CheetoLord02]

Proof that the “fragilis” that most people in California are keeping are not fragilis then please. And it was targeted towards him, you’ve collected and posted screenshots of conversations that included only him. And the topic of your illegal antkeeping is relevant, since a dishonest person is putting out a PSA. Please fix your mistake of not offering proof of your claims. Show us pictures.

>since a dishonest person is putting out a PSA
Oh please. I have never hid the fact that I keep exotic species. You have never interacted with me in the past, and are simply basing your opinion on me from the words of others. I am NOT a dishonest person, I simply do not believe that keeping exotic ant species should affect a person's validity when speaking whatsoever. Everyone knows I keep exotic species. They also know that I do not distribute them to others, and I do not keep any species with a potential to become established in my environment. I do not sell native ants out of state, nor do I sell exotic ants at all.


 

I also would like to say, to everyone, that I apologize if I sounded like I was attacking people in this thread. I had no intention of targeting anybody in particular in this thread. The screenshots of Nurbs were simply shown to demonstrate that these queens are being willfully mis-IDed by reputable sellers. I do think that this is an issue. These sellers know that C. absquatulator would not sell, so they mis-ID them on purpose in order to get more sales. That is the issue that I was truly trying to address in this thread.

Unfortunately, as it stands, I have no way to show you the queens from my exact area that I had mentioned. It's currently over 110 degrees every single day here with no signs of rain, so until it rains I really don't see myself encountering any of these queens. I do have some pictures of queens from a friend in the area, that we believe are C. fragilis, however they are definitely not concrete evidence.
 

 

As it stands, my goal with this thread was to simply show people that there are Californian sellers that are mis-labeling their ants. I wish I could back up my size claims better, but this is the best I can offer at the moment.

Edited by CheetoLord02, August 8 2020 - 9:58 PM.

[ArmansAnts]

Proof that the “fragilis” that most people in California are keeping are not fragilis then please. And it was targeted towards him, you’ve collected and posted screenshots of conversations that included only him. And the topic of your illegal antkeeping is relevant, since a dishonest person is putting out a PSA. Please fix your mistake of not offering proof of your claims. Show us pictures.

He has showed the papers and specimens, and will provide more once he is able to catch alates. He was not targeting, he was simply showing an example of someone being dishonest. Also, two wrongs do not make a right. Even if you consider Cheeto to be immoral or dishonest, I highly doubt you think scamming is honest and moral. There is no way to try and pretend like the topic of illegals is in any way related to this post. We should talk about Formica fusca versus Formica subsericea in North America and Europe! They are both about ants, so they should be brought up! Right?