30 replies to this topic

[dspdrew]

[JakobS]

The USDA is a regulatory agency, that also enforces their regulations. The regulations are based off of laws that congress enacts, but these laws, such as the Plant Protection Act, are created in such a way that mandates the USDA develop regulations that meet the need of the law.  To state otherwise is being disingenuous. The reality is that ants have major impacts on the ecology of an environment both as a predator on other organisms and on plants directly. Simply because an ant does not directly interact with a plant or pests on a plant, does not mean that they are not influencing the living community around them that do. Anything from excluding other organisms which may control plant pests or disease, to modifying the environment in such as way that increases the ability for pests or disease to exist in the ecosystem can occur when introducing a non native species to an environment. Because these species find that they do not have the same limitations provided to them in their natural range, they often exploit new environments faster than native species have the ability to counter and thus make it difficult to protect wild and agricultural plants from infestation or disease. 

 

If a researcher or institution has a viable research plan, containment area, and protocol for destruction of a colony, or escapees, the USDA will be more willing to provide a permit. But if someone applies for a permit that is simply trying to start a colony in his house with no safety measures in place, no viable need other than their personal enjoyment, than yes, a permit is going to be hard to get. Enjoy the ants around you, gee whiz there are plenty of species no matter where you live, except antarctica, but they have penguins to enjoy...

Edited by JakobS, August 6 2015 - 7:20 AM.

[Huch]

What if I put the queen down and let her walk across the border on her own six feet, and then pick her up on the other side?

This is funny because the law is so broad, it is ridiculous. It should apply to non-native ants relative to the geography. For instance, if there is an ant species or pest that is located throughout the United States, there should no controls regarding interstate transportation.

 

I think it was just easier to pass a law banning it all.

[dspdrew]

Most legislatures would rather ban things than learn about them.

[drtrmiller]

In the coming weeks and months, I'll be writing a sensible law modeled on European laws, and I'll need broad user support to help lobby congressional representatives to enact it.  More details when the time comes.

[dspdrew]

How much are you panning to contribute to their next campaign?

[BugFinder]

 

 

 

I'm not sure what you're adding to the conversation, as there is a great divide between how the USDA chooses to enforce provisions of statutes such as the Plant Protection Act, and what is actually permitted or disallowed by the statutes themselves.

 

People need to understand that the USDA is an enforcement arm of government, much like the police. They do not write or interpret the laws as written.  USDA issues permits that are consistent with their enforcement powers, but is not the final legal authority in determining what is and isn't allowed under law—that would be the courts.

 

...

 

Again, I'd request that actual statutes be examined in whole as a matter of guiding policy decisions I have to make in running my site.  I probably won't make policy decisions based on enforcement agency recommendations unless they reach out to me or sellers on the site directly with an actual legal basis for the guideline.

 

I have family members in the USDA.  Part of their job is indeed to interpret regulations, although perhaps not in an official sense.  Otherwise, they would be unable to reliably enforce them.  Any fines that the USDA decides to impose for transporting insects would be costly to avoid, regardless of whether they are based on sound legal principles.  However, I understand what you are trying to get at and generally agree.  I can't see "plant pest" applying to all (or even most) ants, when natural history is carefully considered.

 

Personally, ethics are the most important consideration for me.  I believe that interstate trade of ants would cause more harm than good, even if invasive (and potentially invasive) species are entirely excluded.  Small-scale is probably fine, but, as more people become involved in the hobby, such a system could have dramatic effects, e.g., over-collection of rare species, spread of parasites/pathogens.

 

 

A police officer, or in this case, a regulating agency interprets laws to inform their own actions, but they do not interpret laws in the sense that their interpretation is the law, the way courts do.  I think Terry is right about that, but who has the time or the money to fight the government on such small details that a court could go either way on, when there is no profit involved.  I think it doesn't happen because it's never been worthwhile for anyone to fight the USDA on it.

[BugFinder]

 

What if I put the queen down and let her walk across the border on her own six feet, and then pick her up on the other side?

This is funny because the law is so broad, it is ridiculous. It should apply to non-native ants relative to the geography. For instance, if there is an ant species or pest that is located throughout the United States, there should no controls regarding interstate transportation.

 

I think it was just easier to pass a law banning it all.

 

I agree with you Hutch.

[drtrmiller]

A police officer, or in this case, a regulating agency interprets laws to inform their own actions, but they do not interpret laws in the sense that their interpretation is the law, the way courts do.  I think Terry is right about that, but who has the time or the money to fight the government on such small details that a court could go either way on, when there is no profit involved.  I think it doesn't happen because it's never been worthwhile for anyone to fight the USDA on it.

 

You're right. The USDA is basically the Plant Police.

 

They're never going to give hobbyists permission to transport even ants that pose no theoretical risk to plants—Odontomachus, for example—simply because they are ants and some ants pose great ecological risks.

 

Another example—Lasius neoniger, along with many other species of ants, can tend aphids.  Because aphids can cause varying degrees of damage to some plants, the Plant Protection Act may technically prohibit transport of these ants.  That is not to say that Lasius neoniger being introduced from New York to Florida would cause any economic damage—it certainly would not—but the fact that the possibility exists that some grass or weed may lose a leaf to aphids that would have otherwise been tended by another indigenous ant had it not been for the non-native Lasius neoniger, could be perceived as impermissible because of this law—and worse, that a citizen risks being fined or imprisoned for transporting these ants—is simply bureaucratic overreach at its worst.

[BugFinder]

I agree with you Terry, but realistically the only way to correct that is to create a non-profit that can inform the public and solicit donations to either lobby or sue the government to fix it.  With a hobby such as ours, I don't see that happening.

Edited by BugFinder, August 6 2015 - 10:06 PM.

[Huch]

You're asking for a legal opinion.  You won't find qualified legal advice on this forum.

 

While the official position of byFormica is to contact your local regulatory agency, it should be noted that doing so is about like asking the police if it's okay to do something.  Not even they have all the right answers, and are more likely to provide a wrong answer that errs on the safe side, than a wrong one that could put someone in violation of some sort of law they are in charge of enforcing.

 

Rather than asking the agency, "is it legal to do this," I would recommend asking something similar to: "what laws apply to the capture, sale, and interstate travel of ants in the United States?"

 

And yes, the Plant Protection Act also forbids the export of plant pests outside the United States. So Barristan's example would still be problematic.

 

Why not ask directly the USDA directly and find out what are the requirements to obtain a permit?

 

 

 

I am going to contact them to find out. I am already talking via email with state agriculture department about the very same thing. The state I live in has a law banning the transportation and or sale of live pests without a permit. After I iron it out stateside, I will to the same for the USDA and post what has/had to be done.

 

Unfortunately though, what has to be done may be different according to each representative. As silly as that sounds, Miller is right about how people, probably even government workers, interpret the laws or rules.

Edited by Huch, August 13 2015 - 6:37 PM.