26 replies to this topic

[TechAnt]

Alright so, I know there is all this hate for RIFA and Argentines on the forum. Don’t get me wrong, I HATE THEM too, in fact, I live in a war zone between Argentines and Tetramorium, and nothing else really. But, THEY themselves are not TECHNICALLY the bad guys here. Some queens from both of those species found this new piece of land where they can possibly be safer from their rivals. Well, that accidentally hopped them on a boat to America. Then they landed, and let’s split their stories and see how both got to the position of where they are now.

We go to RIFA Queens and workers, where they landed in U.S.A’s South-East, and when they landed, they saw a new piece of healthy land they can live on. So, they kept multiplying in that new land where they were noticeable. Then, the U.S. deployed massive pesticide spray all over the land, killing the NATIVE ants, livestock, and plants. This legitimately killed all of RIFA’s rivals in the area, and they just kept multiplying, they NEVER knew of any true rivals. What about their overpowering methods, and stinging, and just being hardy ants in general. That is because THEY HAD TO be like that, they grew up in the jungles of South America, where you can be enslaved in some cases, overran mostly, and destroyed. There were army ants, Argentines, Fire Ants, Leafcutters, and hundreds of others using their abilities to keep the colony secure and to keep their colony alive. But America’s native ants, were not prepared to fight with this kind of enemy. Thus, they came to the position they are now.

Moving onto the Argentines, they used the tactics and methods they used in the jungle to survive in this new environment. Not like they knew America was less of chaotic jungle warfare, I mean, they still would have attacked the same anyways. They saw this as land they can take, like any ant, they expanded their colony. They overran the natives because they just extract resources, and move on. They don’t properly WORK with the environment here. In the jungle, the colony’s were always kept at a avg worker count in the jungle by each other. Here, no native can compete with this hardcore jungle sp. hence they are destroyed. The Argentines kept growing and they had to destroy everything because they NEEDED to feed the colony. They kept growing into the super colony’s they are now.

So, it is not their fault. Who’s you may ask? Guess what, It is HUMANITY’S FAULT, like basically every other environmental crisis in the world. Thank you very much. You may reply now.

(This is my take on the topic, feel free to put your’s below, and NO ARGUING, just, debate calmly, I know people hate Argentines and RIFA a lot)

Edit: Guys, my point is, it’s not the ants’ fault entirely. Not they are not terrible and destructive for the environment.

Edited by TechAnt, June 14 2020 - 6:48 PM.

[TechAnt]

*Note, I know I said America was not prepared to handle Argentines / RIFA, excuse Winter Ants and I believe Pheidole Megacephla, but I’m not sure.

Edited by TechAnt, June 14 2020 - 10:27 AM.

[Froggy]

Well, technically, no invasive species is the "bad guy" they where just brought into an area that they don't belong in and where able to thrive

[ArmyAntz]

Yeah, like usual, humans created all their own problems LOL.

[CheetoLord02]

Are RIFA and Argentines really that bad? Absolutely.

Of course these exotic species didn't consciously board a boat to the US to intentionally wreck our ecosystems. Ants don't exactly have free will, they just follow their instincts to survive as well as they possibly can. Blaming exotic species for being exotic isn't what people are doing. It's well known that exotic species can destroy ecosystems, as they often times have limited or no natural competition there. Of course the native species in Brazil are better at competing with Solenopsis invicta than the native species of the Southeast US. That's why they're such a large problem here and not much of a problem there. It's the same story with Solenopsis xyloni in the Southwest US. While they are not as vicious as invicta (less aggressive, slower growth rate, etc.) they are still kept in check by the other ants of the southwest. Just how invicta is kept in check by the native species of the Amazon Rainforest.

However, blaming humans (entirely) also isn't the move. We didn't willingly load S. invicta queens onto a ship in 1930, they just happened to be there at the wrong time. While human activity indirectly brings new species to new places, it's almost never done intentionally. And before you mall cops get on me about keeping exotic species, not a single exotic ant has been established as a result of antkeepers. 

Basically, there really is no blame to be made, just an unfortunate set of circumstances. However, claiming that the ants "aren't an issue" or "aren't that bad" just because they didn't mean to come to the US is just dumb. We are allowed to hate them because they destroy native ecosystems and wipe out native species left and right. For example, Solenopsis xyloni and Formica subsericea both used to be native to Florida, but due to a number of factors (including the presence of S. invicta), both species are no longer present in FL. This creates many ecological issues, as well as being extremely annoying to antkeepers in Florida that may have wanted to keep those species legally. We are allowed to hate invicta as well as other exotics even though it's not "their fault" for being here. Suggesting that we should simply let them exist here is foolish and downright dangerous. RIFA alone costs the US over 2 billion dollars annually:  

“In Texas, over $1.1 billion is spent annually on pesticides for fire ant control, and $872 million of that is for control of ants infesting lawns in urban areas,”(Greenberg). Despite the current massive spending for eradication and control attempts, the damages caused by Solenopsis invicta is still costing over 1 billion dollars in losses annually.  “The costs associated with S. invicta across all the USA have been estimated at US $1 billion per year”(Lard). With the combined costs of agricultural damages and failed eradication and control attempts, Solenopsis invicta is costing the US over 2 billion dollars annually.

Basically, RIFA and Argentines ARE that bad, and anyone who claims otherwise is either ignorant or willfully ignoring the facts at hand.

[RushmoreAnts]

An atomic bomb can be devastating. It’s not the bomb’s fault we made it that way, though. But that doesn’t make it any less destructive.

[Skwiggledork]

... So, they kept multiplying in that new land where they were noticeable...

They were noticeable because they were taking over. We aren't trying to kill them because they are "bad", they are just in a place they don't belong and are causing a ton of damage.

[ArmyAntz]

I think the post was about it not being their fault they are generally bad in the US, not that they aren't bad.

[ANTdrew]

YES

[OhNoNotAgain]

Basically this appears to be a semantics argument about "bad." (Not that I think anyone is arguing.)

Is it "bad" to have RIFAs and Argentine ants taking over parts of the world?

Yes, IF we say that keeping native species around is good/important, and yes IF we agree that we don't want to deal with invading hordes of annoying or very dangerous ants.

Are RIFA and Argentines inherently evil and should be made extinct across the whole planet?

I don't think anyone is arguing that.

(There are very very few organisms that I personally would want to eradicate completely from the planet (aside from certain parasites and microorganisms that don't seem to do anything beneficial and which cause a lot of harm and suffering to people and/or animals).)

Edited by OhNoNotAgain, June 14 2020 - 2:32 PM.

[TechAnt]

I think the post was about it not being their fault they are generally bad in the US, not that they aren't bad.

Yes that was my intention. I never said they were not destructive and terrible for the environment, I just said its not their fault they ended up there.

[Pumpkin_Loves_Ants]

So, it is not their fault. Who’s you may ask? Guess what, It is HUMANITY’S FAULT

Just because it isn't their fault doesn't mean we should brush them off like any other species. Yes, they are destructive in places they aren't native to.

 

Is the point of this thread just for everyone to agree that they are harmful to the U.S. wildlife?

[TechAnt]

So, it is not their fault. Who’s you may ask? Guess what, It is HUMANITY’S FAULT

Just because it isn't their fault doesn't mean we should brush them off like any other species. Yes, they are destructive in places they aren't native to.

Is the point of this thread just for everyone to agree that they are harmful to the U.S. wildlife?

The point is: Argentines and RIFA are destructive and deadly to the environment, but it’s not their fault they are here.

Edited by TechAnt, June 14 2020 - 7:23 PM.

[TechAnt]

Are RIFA and Argentines really that bad? Absolutely.
Of course these exotic species didn't consciously board a boat to the US to intentionally wreck our ecosystems. Ants don't exactly have free will, they just follow their instincts to survive as well as they possibly can. Blaming exotic species for being exotic isn't what people are doing. It's well known that exotic species can destroy ecosystems, as they often times have limited or no natural competition there. Of course the native species in Brazil are better at competing with Solenopsis invicta than the native species of the Southeast US. That's why they're such a large problem here and not much of a problem there. It's the same story with Solenopsis xyloni in the Southwest US. While they are not as vicious as invicta (less aggressive, slower growth rate, etc.) they are still kept in check by the other ants of the southwest. Just how invicta is kept in check by the native species of the Amazon Rainforest.
However, blaming humans (entirely) also isn't the move. We didn't willingly load S. invicta queens onto a ship in 1930, they just happened to be there at the wrong time. While human activity indirectly brings new species to new places, it's almost never done intentionally. And before you mall cops get on me about keeping exotic species, not a single exotic ant has been established as a result of antkeepers. 
Basically, there really is no blame to be made, just an unfortunate set of circumstances. However, claiming that the ants "aren't an issue" or "aren't that bad" just because they didn't mean to come to the US is just dumb. We are allowed to hate them because they destroy native ecosystems and wipe out native species left and right. For example, Solenopsis xyloni and Formica subsericea both used to be native to Florida, but due to a number of factors (including the presence of S. invicta), both species are no longer present in FL. This creates many ecological issues, as well as being extremely annoying to antkeepers in Florida that may have wanted to keep those species legally. We are allowed to hate invicta as well as other exotics even though it's not "their fault" for being here. Suggesting that we should simply let them exist here is foolish and downright dangerous. RIFA alone costs the US over 2 billion dollars annually:  
“In Texas, over $1.1 billion is spent annually on pesticides for fire ant control, and $872 million of that is for control of ants infesting lawns in urban areas,”(Greenberg). Despite the current massive spending for eradication and control attempts, the damages caused by Solenopsis invicta is still costing over 1 billion dollars in losses annually.[/size]  “The costs associated with [/size]S. invicta[/size] across all the USA have been estimated at US $1 billion per year”(Lard). With the combined costs of agricultural damages and failed eradication and control attempts, Solenopsis invicta is costing the US over 2 billion dollars annually.Basically, RIFA and Argentines ARE that bad, and anyone who claims otherwise is either ignorant or willfully ignoring the facts at nhand.[/size]

Alright so, again. My point is, it’s not their complete fault, as some people have said in the past.

I NEVER SAID they were not destructive and terrible for the environment.

[DDD101DDD]

I think we can establish that ants don't really have any intentions or massive underlying plots, they're just following instincts and in the case of invasives such as RIFA and Argentine ants, those instincts are causing massive amounts of damage. But what's the point of this thread really?

 

So, it is not their fault. Who’s you may ask? Guess what, It is HUMANITY’S FAULT, like basically every other environmental crisis in the world. Thank you very much. You may reply now.
 

You literally said the answer in the first post.

[TechAnt]

I think we can establish that ants don't really have any intentions or massive underlying plots, they're just following instincts and in the case of invasives such as RIFA and Argentine ants, those instincts are causing massive amounts of damage. But what's the point of this thread really?
 

So, it is not their fault. Who’s you may ask? Guess what, It is HUMANITY’S FAULT, like basically every other environmental crisis in the world. Thank you very much. You may reply now.

You literally said the answer in the first post.

Ok, looking back, this post seems like a ok thread idea, poor excecution. This was not directed at basically all of the people that replied on the thread. I just have read in the past people hating on the ants themselves existing, whenever they ended up in their area, and gave no thought to the fact they would never be there without humans taking them there.

[Vendayn]

Spoiler alert:

These invasive ants wouldn't be nearly so bad if humans didn't destroy the NATIVE landscape with terraforming deserts into green paradise lands and destroy vast amounts of land for construction and more irrigation.

 

It is entirely humanities fault the invasive ants are still around. Solenopsis invicta and Argentine ants couldn't survive the vast majority of places in california if it wasn't for the vast amounts of irrigation.

 

So its safe to say, we can put the blame on humans wanting everything green instead of native and wanting to destroy giant swaths of earth's landscape.

Edited by Vendayn, June 14 2020 - 8:39 PM.

[Temperateants]

Does anyone think we should cut off funding to save pandas (a fairly useless species, as their food source bamboo is declining anyways) and use it to combat these ants and save the wildlife?

[RushmoreAnts]

I don’t really see why anyone actually could like them. True, it’s humanity’s fault, but does that make it wrong to want them OUT?

[Kaelwizard]

Does anyone think we should cut off funding to save pandas (a fairly useless species, as their food source bamboo is declining anyways) and use it to combat these ants and save the wildlife?

No. #SaveThePandas