29 replies to this topic

[Nare]

So the queen of my Camponotus pennsylvanicus colony didn't make it through hibernation. As of right now, the colony has probably 100+ workers and loads of drone brood thanks to some of the majors. I recently came into possession of a new C. pennsylvanicus queen, and I'm interested in introducing her to the orphaned colony, as I've heard that orphaned Camponotus colonies can sometimes accept new queens.

 

Has anyone here ever introduced a Camponotus queen to an orphaned colony?

 

Does anyone have any tips for doing so?

 

Thanks in advance for any help.

[AntsBC]

So, I have never done this before, but I can give you some insight from a social parasite point of view.  Like I said, I've never tried these things before, this is just me speculating what might work.

 

 

1) You've probably already heard about this, but you can introduce the queen in a test tube with some mesh around it.  This is in order for the colony to adjust to the queen's scent.  If you do this, I'd suggest to not to push the cotton ball very far into the test tube.  You want to get the queen as close as possible to the workers.  Based on what Bee keepers do, you'll probably want to do this for around three days.

 

2) Take a dead ant from the colony, cut up and smush up it's skin, mix it up into a liquid, and apply the liquid to the queen.  You'll want to have more of the ant's skin than inside organs in the mixture.  You could apply this to the queen with a paintbrush or something similar.  This tactic would be emulating how social parasites deceive their hosts, although if the ant has been dead for a while, the queen will probably smell more like a dead worker than a member of the colony.  Even still, if the workers think the queen is dead member of the colony, they're less likely to be aggressive.  A freshly/newly killed ant would work the best for this.

 

3) Chill and introduce one worker at a time to the queen.  This would be a good feeler to see how receptive the workers are, and the small sample size would make it easy for you to intervene if necessary. 

 

4) Finally, if around 10 workers have accepted the queen, add the queen and the workers into the colonies' out world.  

 

 

These are just some steps I would personally do based on my knowledge of social parasites, but unlike social parasites, this whole thing might not work if the queen does not want to be a member of the colony.  It's probably best to introduce the queen as soon as possible to prevent her own colony scent from developing further than it already has.  You could probably do more research into the subject on your own, but I hope this helps!

 

Good luck!

Edited by AntsBC, May 25 2020 - 7:54 PM.

[Nare]

Yeah, so I went ahead and gave the bee queen thing a try. I took a small plastic condiment container, put a wet cotton ball in, added the queen and her brood into the container, and closed it. I poked several holes into the lid to emulate a sort of mesh, and added the container to the outworld. There was a lot of interest, which has been sustained over night.

 

Somewhat alarmingly, the small workers of the colony managed to fit through the pinholes. Fortunately, the queen is unharmed, and she seems to be peacefully interacting with the workers. I think she's trying to ask for food - it looks like she's trying to initiate trophallaxis, but the workers don't yet seem willing. The small workers are able to go in and out of the container, which I think will actually end up being advantageous, as they should be spreading the queen's scent to the rest of the colony. The holes are much too small for the potentially aggressive majors to fit through, so the queen should be safe for the time being. I'm going to give it a few more hours, maybe a day, before I tentatively open up the lid. However, I think this method is working well - the queen is alive and unharmed, and she's interacting with the less aggressive, smaller workers of the colony that can freely move in and out of the container.

 

Will probably keep this thread updated as things develop.

[SuperFrank]

I take a single worker and add it to the queens tube, if there is no aggression I add another few workers, after 1-3 days of non-aggression I present the queen and acclimated workers to the colony. I've presented queens of Pheidole dentata and bicarinata, Camponotus floridanus, Formica archboldi, and Odontomachus brunneus to queenless colonies. It has worked with dentata, bicarinata, floridanus, and archboldi. It has failed with brunneus and archboldi. In my personal experience if there is aggression it is usually on the part of the queen who may attack and kill the smaller workers.

Edited by SuperFrank, May 26 2020 - 7:14 AM.

[TennesseeAnts]

I take a single worker and add it to the queens tube, if there is no aggression I add another few workers, after 1-3 days of non-aggression I present the queen and acclimated workers to the colony. I've presented queens of Pheidole dentata and bicarinata, Camponotus floridanus, Formica archboldi, and Odontomachus brunneus to queenless colonies. It has worked with dentata, bicarinata, floridanus, and archboldi. It has failed with brunneus and archboldi. In my personal experience if there is aggression it is usually on the part of the queen who may attack and kill the smaller workers.

I too, have had success with Pheidole bicarinata.

[Temperateants]

Update?

This would prove to be a very interesting documenting.

Edited by Temperateants, May 26 2020 - 10:12 AM.

[Nare]

Update?
This would prove to be a very interesting documenting.

Yeah sure. So I left her overnight, and small workers came in and out. I counted maybe 3 bodies, but there were regular amounts of small workers entering and exiting, and acting pretty civil. Queen seemed fine and still looked healthy, had all 6 legs and both antennae. A little while ago, after seeing her interacting calmly with some of the small workers, I decided to open the lid a little bit more. Unfortunately, she quickly dispatched the three new workers that entered, so I decided to call off that attempt and closed the lid back to its standard configuration. I figure I'd better leave her for a bit longer. I may try again with the proper introduction tomorrow.
 
Interestingly, when the small workers emerge from the container, the larger workers crowd around and groom her, rather intensely it seems. Doesn't look like they're hurting them, but they really push them around. I've attached a short clip of this behavior. I hope this is acclimating the larger workers to the queen's scent. I may remove the queen's capsule in order to add more water to the cotton ball (it's really warm hear, I fear the cotton may dry out, and to potentially remove the dead worker's bodies. I may try and coat the queen in their scent according to what ABC suggested, but I wouldn't want to stress the queen anymore than she already is. Best bet is to just leave them be - workers are still showing interest in the queen's capsule and thus her scent, so I assume they'll continue to try interacting with her at least for a while.
 
https://imgur.com/wIlRndN
 
EDIT: Can't figure out how to embed the imgur clip, so I guess the folks who don't like to click spooky links won't see the video. Not essential anyways, just an interesting observation.

Edited by Nare, May 26 2020 - 2:39 PM.

[Nare]

Tried to introduce the queen again today, didn't go well. She started attacking workers again. Going to put her in a test tube and let her rest and eat some sugar. In the meantime, I'll try and rethink my strategy.

[Nare]

So I let the queen rest and recuperate for several hours this afternoon. I gave her some honey water as well. I've put her back into the initial cell that she started off in, I think this time I'll just leave her in there and let the small workers continue to interact with her for several days. Cotton ball should stay moist for that long, especially since it's supposed to cool down later this week. So far, I've observed the same behavior I initially observed - the workers are cautiously interacting with the queen, and she isn't dispatching them one by one. I'll let her do her thing, and hopefully in a few days I should have some progress.

[nurbs]

I've done this a few times. Not with your specific species but with different Camponotus. It generally works, probably dependent on the species as well as their mood. 

 

Take the queen with her own initial workers in a test tube setup. It's important that the queen has brood or at least a few workers. That way you know she is fertile. Unplug the cotton and tape plastic or steel mesh over the top so air can get through. Put that test tube setup in the colony with no queens. Feed both colonies from time to time with the exact same foods. This is important. Different foods can changes their CHC profile (pheromones). Give it about a week. Open up the test tube with the queen and worker inside and they should be acclimated to each other and their CHC profiles will match.

Edited by nurbs, May 27 2020 - 6:10 PM.

[sirjordanncurtis]

Thought i'd embed ur clip for you ;D

[sirjordanncurtis]

Your queen likely doesn't have her own scent at this point. If she does have a scent, it would be the smell of whatever parent colony she originated from. Ants have the general inclination to be friendly before being aggressive. However, queens are usually more worried about surviving and finding a place to nest rather than meet new workers. So I think the main problem which is preventing your experiment from working is the queen's mentality.

 

I'm not so sure about nurbs' theory of matching the cuticular hydrocarbons with food. So far, I've only seen research of Argentines with this actually being useful in minimizing aggression. Other papers seem to document that CHC is mostly hereditary. It could be that since Argentines have such widespread supercolonies, the colonies are so genetically interconnected that food has a greater effect or something. 

Then again, if this has worked for him in the past then it's worth noting and trying.

 

Edit: CHC is often also determined by environmental factors such as acclimation to heat (drought/water protection). Exposing the queen and the workers to the same air and environment would definitely be beneficial for them.

Edited by sirjordanncurtis, May 27 2020 - 6:19 PM.

[Nare]

Will give the food thing a try, was just talking with a keeper who managed to introduce a queen by giving the queen some small workers (which I have been able to do) and then chilling both the queen and workers and the main colony. They then dumped the queen into the chilled colony and apparently everything worked out fine. I am a bit more reticent to try this, but I'm currently chilling the queen and workers and the main colony, and I'll see if there's less aggression tomorrow morning. Otherwise I'll move on to the food thing.

[BroJack]

So I just jumped onto the forum and was going to ask about re-queening a colony because I also have a Camponotus pennsylvanicus colony without a queen. Like Nare, I also have them producing drone brood. I have a lot of Camponotus pennsylvanicus queens in test tubes with 2-4 workers and brood. This thread was extremely informative and I think I am going to try the test tube with mesh route to try and introduce a new queen. My question is should I try to introduce the test tube to the out world or should I introduce the test tube into the colony? I would have to move the queen, workers, and brood to a smaller test tube if I introduce her to the colony but I think that would be more effective and would follow what is done in bee re-queening.

[RushmoreAnts]

So I just jumped onto the forum and was going to ask about re-queening a colony because I also have a Camponotus pennsylvanicus colony without a queen. Like Nare, I also have them producing drone brood. I have a lot of Camponotus pennsylvanicus queens in test tubes with 2-4 workers and brood. This thread was extremely informative and I think I am going to try the test tube with mesh route to try and introduce a new queen. My question is should I try to introduce the test tube to the out world or should I introduce the test tube into the colony? I would have to move the queen, workers, and brood to a smaller test tube if I introduce her to the colony but I think that would be more effective and would follow what is done in bee re-queening.

Camponotus pennsylvanicus is not present in Arizona, or any western state. Yours is probably Camponotus modoc, identical to pennsylvanicus in every aspect, yet only lives in the western U.S. Here in South Dakota, we are lucky enough to have both, as we’re on the border of both species’ ranges. Yet this can understandably make IDs much more difficult.

[SuperFrank]

So I just jumped onto the forum and was going to ask about re-queening a colony because I also have a Camponotus pennsylvanicus colony without a queen. Like Nare, I also have them producing drone brood. I have a lot of Camponotus pennsylvanicus queens in test tubes with 2-4 workers and brood. This thread was extremely informative and I think I am going to try the test tube with mesh route to try and introduce a new queen. My question is should I try to introduce the test tube to the out world or should I introduce the test tube into the colony? I would have to move the queen, workers, and brood to a smaller test tube if I introduce her to the colony but I think that would be more effective and would follow what is done in bee re-queening.

Camponotus pennsylvanicus is not present in Arizona, or any western state. Yours is probably Camponotus modoc, identical to pennsylvanicus in every aspect, yet only lives in the western U.S. Here in South Dakota, we are lucky enough to have both, as we’re on the border of both species’ ranges. Yet this can understandably make IDs much more difficult.

C pennsylvanicus is distributed throughout the continental u.s. afaik. Def listed as present in arizona

[Nare]

So I just jumped onto the forum and was going to ask about re-queening a colony because I also have a Camponotus pennsylvanicus colony without a queen. Like Nare, I also have them producing drone brood. I have a lot of Camponotus pennsylvanicus queens in test tubes with 2-4 workers and brood. This thread was extremely informative and I think I am going to try the test tube with mesh route to try and introduce a new queen. My question is should I try to introduce the test tube to the out world or should I introduce the test tube into the colony? I would have to move the queen, workers, and brood to a smaller test tube if I introduce her to the colony but I think that would be more effective and would follow what is done in bee re-queening.

I'd introduce the test tube to the nest, cause then you'll really get them exchanging scents. I figure a tube connected directly to the nest is gonna be no more or less safe than one connected to the outworld

[Nare]

Well bad news.    I tried chilling the queen and the colony and then introducing them. At first it seemed like it had worked, there was no obvious fighting going on. Came back a few hours later though, only to find the queen'd been chopped into bits. I'm going to try nurb's method, hopefully it'll work, cause I really don't want this colony to just dwindle away. I caught this second queen without wings a few days ago, and she's been fed some honey water. I'll try and offer some to the colony as well. I have no definite proof that she's fertile (besides the lack of wings) but at this point I really don't have any alternatives.

 

If I still see signs of aggression after a week or two of the test tube being connected up to the nest, I'll probably call of the whole experiment. Don't wanna lose another queen, even if it means the colony dwindles away. Better a live queen and a big colony in a couple year's time than a dead queen and a big colony now that's still dwindling away.

[SleepyAsianAnter]

If it doesn't work and you really want to salvage something, you can try to take brood from the colony and give it to the queen. Any pupae should form workers fast enough for them to care for the brood. They have to be really closely related though.

[Nare]

If it doesn't work and you really want to salvage something, you can try to take brood from the colony and give it to the queen. Any pupae should form workers fast enough for them to care for the brood. They have to be really closely related though.

Only pupae left in the colony are drone pupae unfortunately.