193 replies to this topic

[Squidkid]

Ok so You have a different and more fine tuned views about impact on environment correct.

[Squidkid]

Again I am not trying seem rude or provocative. I realize We have a similar goal just with different ways We plan To use the knowledge gained if successfull. I hate talking on forums for fear of sounding rude. I am really not trying

[madbiologist]

Agreed bad parrallel. My point point was more on the impact of there surroundings. Tapinoma at least The ones I witness here in Arkansas are very oppertunistic about Nesting sites and are more of a scavenger and They don't appear to affect anything at least not in a detrimental way. In other words there presence or lack there of does not constitute any major change in the surrounding area. And if I interpreted what You said correctly, Neivamyrmex at least the Species I have witnessed (Opacithorax and Nigrescens) don't appear much different in that account. Basically I don't think They are a Keystone Species. They are Important and do Play a roll. But where I am at. They ecosystems that They are absent from don't appear to be in distress.
I hope I conveyed My point correctly.
I am not trying to be rude or opposing in anyway. Just spreading My knowledge

I appreciate what you are saying but firstly, as with most ants and their interactions with their ecosystems are only known in fragments and bits so it is not possible to say that impacts made are insignificant or less or what, we just do not know. Secondly, as I noted, Neivamyrmex most definitely has affected the evolutionary outcomes of numerous species of ants from various genera across their co-shared geographic ranges. It is not important to look for "distress" or "major impacts" because what we consider significant to major are subjective and based on our current fragmented confirmed understandings. I am not trying to be long winded in this and just as another caveat Tapinoma sessile is the species I am currently doing my masters on and in the past year I have read many studies on it as a species so I am quite familiar with it and what I can confirm is we know little about it overall and it is a species all of us reading this thread probably have had encounters with unlike Neivamyrmex in all its various species.

Are you the one revising the sessile species complex?

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[PurdueEntomology]

 

 

Agreed bad parrallel. My point point was more on the impact of there surroundings. Tapinoma at least The ones I witness here in Arkansas are very oppertunistic about Nesting sites and are more of a scavenger and They don't appear to affect anything at least not in a detrimental way. In other words there presence or lack there of does not constitute any major change in the surrounding area. And if I interpreted what You said correctly, Neivamyrmex at least the Species I have witnessed (Opacithorax and Nigrescens) don't appear much different in that account. Basically I don't think They are a Keystone Species. They are Important and do Play a roll. But where I am at. They ecosystems that They are absent from don't appear to be in distress.
I hope I conveyed My point correctly.
I am not trying to be rude or opposing in anyway. Just spreading My knowledge

I appreciate what you are saying but firstly, as with most ants and their interactions with their ecosystems are only known in fragments and bits so it is not possible to say that impacts made are insignificant or less or what, we just do not know. Secondly, as I noted, Neivamyrmex most definitely has affected the evolutionary outcomes of numerous species of ants from various genera across their co-shared geographic ranges. It is not important to look for "distress" or "major impacts" because what we consider significant to major are subjective and based on our current fragmented confirmed understandings. I am not trying to be long winded in this and just as another caveat Tapinoma sessile is the species I am currently doing my masters on and in the past year I have read many studies on it as a species so I am quite familiar with it and what I can confirm is we know little about it overall and it is a species all of us reading this thread probably have had encounters with unlike Neivamyrmex in all its various species.

Are you the one revising the sessile species complex?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

Yes

[PurdueEntomology]

Since Covid-19 our ability to physically travel to various parts of the country has been curtailed so now my research will focus on the eastern population not transcontinental and more specifically a the high Appalachian populations which upon examining one gene has given indications that higher elevation populations in the Appalachians are phylogenetically different from the lower elevation one and are actually probably boreal in nature as they are appearing to be associated with the Canadian populations.  But yeah, I had wanted to do a transcontinental examination but pandemics have a way fo through thorns in the path.  In the end I will settle for what data I can get and see where it leads.  We will now intensely sample, run male genitalia morphometrics, caste morphometrics  and do a series of genes: nuclear and mitochondrial and see what they indicate about the eastern population and the higher elevation ones.  

Edited by PurdueEntomology, May 23 2020 - 6:56 PM.

[madbiologist]

Since Covid-19 our ability to physically travel to various parts of the country has been curtailed so now my research will focus on the eastern population not transcontinental and more specifically a the high Appalachian populations which in examine one gene has given indications that higher elevation populations in the Appalachians are phylogenetically different from the lower elevation one and are actually probably boreal in nature as they are appearing to be associated with the Canadian populations. But yeah, I had wanted to do a transcontinental examination but pandemics have a way fo through thorns in the path. In the end I will settle for what data I can get and see where it leads.

How far are you into the revision? I can't wait to read it when it's done.

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[PurdueEntomology]

 

Since Covid-19 our ability to physically travel to various parts of the country has been curtailed so now my research will focus on the eastern population not transcontinental and more specifically a the high Appalachian populations which in examine one gene has given indications that higher elevation populations in the Appalachians are phylogenetically different from the lower elevation one and are actually probably boreal in nature as they are appearing to be associated with the Canadian populations. But yeah, I had wanted to do a transcontinental examination but pandemics have a way fo through thorns in the path. In the end I will settle for what data I can get and see where it leads.

How far are you into the revision? I can't wait to read it when it's done.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

 

I will have my masters completed by summer 2021. For me the current study is giving me valuable genomic, population genetics, bioinformatics and phylogenetic knowledge along with practical experience to put towards the doctorate.  So if in the end I am not able to do currently what I had intended and worked for before Covid hit, at least I am going to get valuable preparation for research into some area with army ants, that is what I am working towards.  I have my fingers crossed.  Again excuse my meandering.  

Edited by PurdueEntomology, May 23 2020 - 7:03 PM.

[PurdueEntomology]

Again I am not trying seem rude or provocative. I realize We have a similar goal just with different ways We plan To use the knowledge gained if successfull. I hate talking on forums for fear of sounding rude. I am really not trying

No worries, we all are learning. 

[gcsnelling]

Agreed bad parrallel. My point point was more on the impact of there surroundings. Tapinoma at least The ones I witness here in Arkansas are very oppertunistic about Nesting sites and are more of a scavenger and They don't appear to affect anything at least not in a detrimental way. In other words there presence or lack there of does not constitute any major change in the surrounding area. And if I interpreted what You said correctly, Neivamyrmex at least the Species I have witnessed (Opacithorax and Nigrescens) don't appear much different in that account. Basically I don't think They are a Keystone Species. They are Important and do Play a roll. But where I am at. They ecosystems that They are absent from don't appear to be in distress.
I hope I conveyed My point correctly.
I am not trying to be rude or opposing in anyway. Just spreading My knowledge

Lets make this really plain and simple. Just because you don't see what you deem to be "major" or significant impact does not mean that it is not occurring, all that means is that we lack the understanding to recognize it. So much of the habitat in the state where Mother Nature Goes To Die is so degraded and fragmented that many normal behaviors of Neivamyrmex and other species are likely to be out of whack anyway. However I can not argue that Tapinoma, like the human inhabitants there are very opportunistic and will set up house keeping pretty much anywhere they see fit. Tapinoma are very good at excluding other species from resources and nesting sites, there are few species which can even remotely compete with them in such disturbed habitats. Like Linepithema on the west coast, Tapinoma is a major pest species in Arkansux.

Edited by gcsnelling, May 24 2020 - 6:08 AM.

[Squidkid]

It is true There may be Things We may not See or understand That could be changing in ways that could potentially be detrimental. But Impact and Change should not always be given negative connotation. That can be a slippery one sided slope. But I do respect that like many, I have more to learn. But what I do have is the knowledge I have personally gained from My area with these Species. And I think sharing that information Might give help to Others who could utilize that information. I don't seek conflict, just the sharing of experiences to achieve the common goal of knowledge. It is why I joined this sight 😃

[ponerinecat]

From My personal experience Here where I Live They do not appear to be a Keystone Species. Not to say They aren't Important. My experience seems to show that They are more or less like Tapinoma sessile. Nomadic and numerous. But There presence seems inconsequential to The areas they roam through. Again. This is not a fact. Just based on My experience with Them
From My personal experience Here where I Live They do not appear to be a Keystone Species. Not to say They aren't Important. My experience seems to show that They are more or less like Tapinoma sessile. Nomadic and numerous. But There presence seems inconsequential to The areas they roam through. Again. This is not a fact. Just based on My experience with Them

Just to be clear, you seem to think a keystone species is a species hugely important to the environment, as far as I am aware this is not true. A keystone species is an animal whose population and overall health reflects the health of the environment it lives in. While Neivamyrmex may not be hugely important to the environment, an environment with Neivamyrmex in it is almost guaranteed to be a healthy place in order to be able to support the sheer amount of food intake these ants can have. Keystone species do not have to play a major role, but simply are very sensitive animals reliant on a specific environment.

[ponerinecat]

Basically, if a keystone species' population is large in a certain place it is most likely best to leave that place alone and promote conservation of all the inhabitants inside to maintain said health.

[Squidkid]

Do You mean an indicator Species? Like Frogs? Keystone Species, at least by the defiinitions given are Species that are more relied on. To the point that There removal would have a bad effect on its ecosystem

[PurdueEntomology]

 

From My personal experience Here where I Live They do not appear to be a Keystone Species. Not to say They aren't Important. My experience seems to show that They are more or less like Tapinoma sessile. Nomadic and numerous. But There presence seems inconsequential to The areas they roam through. Again. This is not a fact. Just based on My experience with Them
From My personal experience Here where I Live They do not appear to be a Keystone Species. Not to say They aren't Important. My experience seems to show that They are more or less like Tapinoma sessile. Nomadic and numerous. But There presence seems inconsequential to The areas they roam through. Again. This is not a fact. Just based on My experience with Them

Just to be clear, you seem to think a keystone species is a species hugely important to the environment, as far as I am aware this is not true. A keystone species is an animal whose population and overall health reflects the health of the environment it lives in. While Neivamyrmex may not be hugely important to the environment, an environment with Neivamyrmex in it is almost guaranteed to be a healthy place in order to be able to support the sheer amount of food intake these ants can have. Keystone species do not have to play a major role, but simply are very sensitive animals reliant on a specific environment.

 

"A species whose importance to community and ecosystem structure, composition and function is disproportionally  large relative to its abundance". (https://web.utk.edu/...z Dimarco.pdf).The keystone species must be able to demonstrate a disproportionate effect on its environment for example when it is removed.  To be honest I am not aware of any scientific work to demonstrate that Neivamyrmex opacithorax, nigrescens or carolinensis meet the varied and often times blurred definitions of a keystone species, the best being that which I cited.  For example much field research has shown that Eciton burchellii is by all accounts a keystone species and if it was removed then a dramatic shift in the local ecology of where it lives would be affected, but like I said this has not been TO ME via scientific data been demonstrated with our three eastern Neivamyrmex species.

[ponerinecat]

 

 

From My personal experience Here where I Live They do not appear to be a Keystone Species. Not to say They aren't Important. My experience seems to show that They are more or less like Tapinoma sessile. Nomadic and numerous. But There presence seems inconsequential to The areas they roam through. Again. This is not a fact. Just based on My experience with Them
From My personal experience Here where I Live They do not appear to be a Keystone Species. Not to say They aren't Important. My experience seems to show that They are more or less like Tapinoma sessile. Nomadic and numerous. But There presence seems inconsequential to The areas they roam through. Again. This is not a fact. Just based on My experience with Them

Just to be clear, you seem to think a keystone species is a species hugely important to the environment, as far as I am aware this is not true. A keystone species is an animal whose population and overall health reflects the health of the environment it lives in. While Neivamyrmex may not be hugely important to the environment, an environment with Neivamyrmex in it is almost guaranteed to be a healthy place in order to be able to support the sheer amount of food intake these ants can have. Keystone species do not have to play a major role, but simply are very sensitive animals reliant on a specific environment.

 

"A species whose importance to community and ecosystem structure, composition and function is disproportionally  large relative to its abundance". (https://web.utk.edu/...z Dimarco.pdf).The keystone species must be able to demonstrate a disproportionate effect on its environment for example when it is removed.  To be honest I am not aware of any scientific work to demonstrate that Neivamyrmex opacithorax, nigrescens or carolinensis meet the varied and often times blurred definitions of a keystone species, the best being that which I cited.  For example much field research has shown that Eciton burchellii is by all accounts a keystone species and if it was removed then a dramatic shift in the local ecology of where it lives would be affected, but like I said this has not been TO ME via scientific data been demonstrated with our three eastern Neivamyrmex species.

 

Woops, I guess I mixed the two up. My bad.

[Squidkid]

It is all good. It is why We are here. 😀

[PurdueEntomology]

Hence my insistence on citations when making statements of scientific merit such as : biology, behavior, distribution.  Though citations are not "proof positive" and "trump cards" they do at least allow each of us to look into the reference or references, the referees  and investigate.  There is no bad in any one on this thread it is just how I function.  

[PurdueEntomology]

I just gave 15 grams of brood-food.  It will shortly all be gathered up!!

 

 

 

Edited by PurdueEntomology, May 24 2020 - 1:01 PM.

[PurdueEntomology]

 

Agreed bad parrallel. My point point was more on the impact of there surroundings. Tapinoma at least The ones I witness here in Arkansas are very oppertunistic about Nesting sites and are more of a scavenger and They don't appear to affect anything at least not in a detrimental way. In other words there presence or lack there of does not constitute any major change in the surrounding area. And if I interpreted what You said correctly, Neivamyrmex at least the Species I have witnessed (Opacithorax and Nigrescens) don't appear much different in that account. Basically I don't think They are a Keystone Species. They are Important and do Play a roll. But where I am at. They ecosystems that They are absent from don't appear to be in distress.
I hope I conveyed My point correctly.
I am not trying to be rude or opposing in anyway. Just spreading My knowledge

Lets make this really plain and simple. Just because you don't see what you deem to be "major" or significant impact does not mean that it is not occurring, all that means is that we lack the understanding to recognize it. So much of the habitat in the state where Mother Nature Goes To Die is so degraded and fragmented that many normal behaviors of Neivamyrmex and other species are likely to be out of whack anyway. However I can not argue that Tapinoma, like the human inhabitants there are very opportunistic and will set up house keeping pretty much anywhere they see fit. Tapinoma are very good at excluding other species from resources and nesting sites, there are few species which can even remotely compete with them in such disturbed habitats. Like Linepithema on the west coast, Tapinoma is a major pest species in Arkansux.

 

Think "Facultative Invasive Species Complex"

[gcsnelling]

 

 

Agreed bad parrallel. My point point was more on the impact of there surroundings. Tapinoma at least The ones I witness here in Arkansas are very oppertunistic about Nesting sites and are more of a scavenger and They don't appear to affect anything at least not in a detrimental way. In other words there presence or lack there of does not constitute any major change in the surrounding area. And if I interpreted what You said correctly, Neivamyrmex at least the Species I have witnessed (Opacithorax and Nigrescens) don't appear much different in that account. Basically I don't think They are a Keystone Species. They are Important and do Play a roll. But where I am at. They ecosystems that They are absent from don't appear to be in distress.
I hope I conveyed My point correctly.
I am not trying to be rude or opposing in anyway. Just spreading My knowledge

Lets make this really plain and simple. Just because you don't see what you deem to be "major" or significant impact does not mean that it is not occurring, all that means is that we lack the understanding to recognize it. So much of the habitat in the state where Mother Nature Goes To Die is so degraded and fragmented that many normal behaviors of Neivamyrmex and other species are likely to be out of whack anyway. However I can not argue that Tapinoma, like the human inhabitants there are very opportunistic and will set up house keeping pretty much anywhere they see fit. Tapinoma are very good at excluding other species from resources and nesting sites, there are few species which can even remotely compete with them in such disturbed habitats. Like Linepithema on the west coast, Tapinoma is a major pest species in Arkansux.

 

Think "Facultative Invasive Species Complex"

 

Good point, I have always been the first to admit that Tapinoma  is almost certainly a complex.