147 replies to this topic

[Broncos]

I personally think everyone should stop posting here. It is getting people in arguments which ruins peoples relationships with each other. And its very pointless to fight over keeping exotic ants or native ants because there are so many good and bad reasons for keeping both of them. Chill out people. 

[soulsynapse]

I'm sorry discord screens were brought into this thread.

 

The purpose of taking a stand against illegal trading isn't because of the risk invasives pose directly, it's about putting the best foot forward in the hobby and ultimately protecting it from opportunists and from regulatory bodies themselves. It's also to protect the hobby. We try to match the effort shown by regulatory bodies to act in good faith and be able to police ourselves. It's not to ostracize people.

 

Bans have already happened in the millipede hobby because their community didn't listen to the regulatory bodies. Having spoken with the person who brought that ban down, it could absolutely happen in the ant keeping hobby.

 

We've also had users in the community raided, or met face to face with USDA, so being able to say hey we're trying is pretty important going forward. There are also instances of people in foreign countries getting bio terrorist and smuggling charges. It's actually much more serious abroad than it is in the states, and unfortunately, that extends to the US because of our international relations. Shipping to China (in particular) is a big problem.

 

It's not about losing our [censored] at members of our community. It's about having a united front and informing people for the wider health of the hobby. There's no malice in this thread, it's one person trying to take care of their pets. I'd say best practices would be to talk to the user, inform them about legality, gauge their interest in abiding the laws and remove them if they insist on propping up illegal smugglers with their purchases. If you've sold ants legally and then found those ants making rounds on Chinese markets, you've been victim to the same thing the original poster has done.

 

Regardless of how some members of the community feel about my stance on this, the people most passionate about the hobby are the ones who are going to be willing to risk more. Not every person that buys illegally is an opportunist or doesn't care about the hobby. Fighting like this doesn't bring understanding, it just separates people into camps.

[drtrmiller]

Bans have already happened in the millipede hobby because their community didn't listen to the regulatory bodies. Having spoken with the person who brought that ban down, it could absolutely happen in the ant keeping hobby.

 

I'm interested in hearing more about what you know on this matter.

 

My understanding is that the regulation of insects in the United States falls under two main federal statutes, along with an extremely sparse patchwork of state laws: chiefly the Plant Protection Act and the Lacey Act.  The PPA was enacted by Congress as part of Article I's authority for the Congress to regulate commerce among the states.  The PPA provides that the Secretary of Agriculture may take certain steps to protect plants and plant products from harm by pest organisms.

 

However, we should not be quick to allow just any federal agency rule seeking to "ban" the interstate movement of a particular organism.  In enforcing any type of ban through punitive measures like fines or imprisonment of U.S. citizens, the agency should be tasked with defending the specific rule, which is a very difficult thing to do and relies less on scientific bases than it does on Chevron deference, of which the Supreme Court has been increasingly critical in recent years.

 

The Chevron doctrine basically states that courts should defer to federal agency decision making when Congress writes a law that is intentionally vague or unclear, a perfect example of which is the PPA, in which neither ants, nor "reproductive forms" of organisms are mentioned (and yet we end up with the misinformation that only "queen ants" are "illegal" for interstate transport, when in fact, the PPA would apply to all castes and life stages of ants, since the USDA has designated all organisms in the family Formicidae as plant pests).  But this can be problematic, as it gives federal agencies like the USDA the authority to potentially overreach and "criminalize" certain activities to a broader extent never intended by Congress.

We will probably see SCOTUS overturn certain Chevron doctrinal principles in the coming decades as a check to the increasing power of Article II implied powers of the President and executive branch agencies like the USDA.  No hobbyist should be content to give unelected government bureaucrats the sole power to decide such minutiae like what bugs can be kept or shipped/sold between private persons like hobbyists (though commercial cultivation and sale on a larger scale is a different can of worms), unless the agency can clearly show the potential for widespread and immediate harm, for which there can be no effective control except the outright prevention of the spread of the specific organism.  If we just blindly accept what the government and scientists tell us is impermissible, then there are few Constitutional limits to the freedoms which can be extinguished in an instant by the stroke of some unelected government agency official's pen.

Edited by drtrmiller, May 15 2020 - 8:30 PM.

[TechAnt]

The risk of harm by introduced species to agricultural systems sustaining our critical food supply is not only very real, but it is also well studied.  To my knowledge, there is no documented case of ant keeping hobbyists having caused any type of invasive ant species introduction.  This is not to say it couldn't happen, but only that ants are simply not very durable, and many require very narrow environmental parameters specific to certain bioregions in order to survive, thrive, and reproduce.
 
Instead, virtually all exotic tramp ant species were introduced to foreign regions by human activity on a massive scale, through exchange of agricultural and similar products.  It is therefore quite possible that most of the invasive species that could thrive in the U.S. have already done so, and there may not be that many more opportunities for new introductions.  For example, Solenopsis invicta was believed to have been transported on ocean liners transporting agricultural products from South America nearly a century ago (1940).  Mass commercial transportation is how they spread, and it is consequently nearly impossible to forever prevent the spread of every single problem organism.  It is far more likely that the next plant pest introduction will be ushered in through the movement of billions of humans via planes, trains, or automobiles, rather than by some irresponsible ant smuggler.
 
It is also for these reasons that all applicable federal legislation in the United States deals almost exclusively with the interstate movement of these plant products.  For decades, plants have been treated for pests and quarantined when they are moved from one state to another, or imported from abroad.  Even dead wood imported from abroad must be fumigated and quarantined before being allowed entry into the US.  The main risk to US commerce comes from the movement of enormous volume of goods—not a single queen ant that has a near 100% probability of a quick death from the moment she enters the care of an inexperienced hobbyist.
Who is to say an Atta species could even thrive in all the U.S. states?  Isn't there a biological reason their range is limited to Texas and Louisiana?  Why isn't Europe infested with Atta, since they have been sold to hobbyists there for the past decades or longer?
Notwithstanding these facts, who here has the authority to actually do anything about purported "illegal activity" other than post comments like a lunatic mall cop on the internet?  How does this conduct affect you personally?  Are your feelings hurt that they "broke the law" and get to keep a cool ant species that you, a model citizen, can only dream of?  Are you that much a raging environmentalist that you chain yourself to other people and stand in the road to prevent the construction of pipelines and other infrastructure which is far more acutely harmful to the planet than a kid whose pet ant is destined to die tomorrow?
American ant keepers in particular have been brainwashed by years of repeated misinformation and fear mongering by individuals whose stated goal is to end the legality of the ant keeping hobby altogether.  Is that the kind of person you trust with educating your worldview?  Have we seriously reached the point where such a frantic dogpile is so normal to us, that we forget that virtually every person finding this forum is interested in studying and keeping ants?  Wouldn't it be helpful to calmly educate on the laws in instances where someone is suggesting engaging in future "illegal activity," rather than investigating and punishing through these incredibly ridiculous discussions after the fact?
 
I would be remiss not to remind everyone that there is no law against keeping Atta in any of the U.S. states.  If someone said on the forum, "Hi, I am in Washington state and would like to buy Atta," it would be correct to simply explain that because Atta are not known to exist in Washington, and because U.S. law prohibits the transport of plant pests between the states, it is therefore unlawful, in your view, to advise the user on how to obtain the insect from the U.S. states in which they are present.  We even have a rule prohibiting use of this forum to engage in the transportation or exchange of ant species between any of the U.S. states, irrespective of whether the user has a permit.  We do not have rules that call for banning users who allegedly obtained an ant species they are "not supposed to have."  Such a rule would require a silly amount of investigatory time and energy to enforce, we probably could not enforce it equally and fairly, and so that is simply not what this forum is about.
Everyone contributing to this harassment should ask themselves why they started keeping ants?  Do you care more about studying the insect and sharing your passion and wonder of the natural world with others by contributing helpful information, or are you more interested in launching investigations, inquiries, and acting as law enforcement officers, except with no actual enforcement power aside from these hysterical forum posts?
 
This violent got'cha culture in ant keeping has got to stop.  Armchair lawyer activism in the ant keeping community has got to stop.  Nobody joins an ant keeping forum to be treated this way by do-no-wrong randos on the internet.  If you're seriously so distraught that you believe someone is doing something that is going to cause imminent harm to someone or something somewhere, contact the USDA or some other law enforcement body which has the power to enforce the laws you allege to be the pinnacle of importance—I'm sure they will care deeply about your broken heart, justice will be swift, and punishment will be harsh!

 
Thank you. This needed to be said.

Yes, we should let this debate die now, as stated above. That was needed to be said, that can bring this annoyingly long and heated thread to justice. Let’s not try and speak anymore on here unless it actually has a good reason or point.

[Temperateants]

I am sick and tired of posts and responses from people like this that desperately want to prove that THEIR way of keeping ants is THE BEST way of keeping ants. These posts/responses keep showing the same freaking argument, and last for weeks on end. Regardless of your opinion, someone else isn't you and you aren't them. You go and keep the ants you want to keep, they can go and keep the ants they want to keep. You can have your opinions and reasons, but everything that needs to be said has been already said countless times in this debate. And I'm tired of seeing it constantly in every forum post. It plagues this hobby and makes it toxic and unlikable. I couldn't care less if you're "Team Exotic Ants" or if you're "Team Native Ants". What matters is that we all enjoy this hobby, and it is annoying to see these arguments come up time and time again. It's time we draw a conclusion here: keep ants whatever way you feel is morally and ethically right, and do it by your skill level. Fin.

That's good and all, OP obviously couldn't keep them alive, and a beginner smuggling ants because they are too lazy to look in their neighborhood are problems. 

[RushmoreAnts]

 

I am sick and tired of posts and responses from people like this that desperately want to prove that THEIR way of keeping ants is THE BEST way of keeping ants. These posts/responses keep showing the same freaking argument, and last for weeks on end. Regardless of your opinion, someone else isn't you and you aren't them. You go and keep the ants you want to keep, they can go and keep the ants they want to keep. You can have your opinions and reasons, but everything that needs to be said has been already said countless times in this debate. And I'm tired of seeing it constantly in every forum post. It plagues this hobby and makes it toxic and unlikable. I couldn't care less if you're "Team Exotic Ants" or if you're "Team Native Ants". What matters is that we all enjoy this hobby, and it is annoying to see these arguments come up time and time again. It's time we draw a conclusion here: keep ants whatever way you feel is morally and ethically right, and do it by your skill level. Fin.

That's good and all, OP obviously couldn't keep them alive, and a beginner smuggling ants because they are too lazy to look in their neighborhood are problems. 

 

While this is true, the only thing it'll probably do is stir up more debate.

[Tfisupe]

Thanks for all who defended me...I don't need it...but appreciate it.

[AntsExodus]

Why are they dead?