147 replies to this topic

[AnthonyP163]

"They can't survive winter."

Ah yes, that's exactly what people thought when they first saw these guys in Scotland:

 

Turns out they are perfectly capable of surviving the damp cold scottish weather, winter included.

 

 

Animals from warmer climate zone always aren't capable of surviving winter until they suddenly can.

It is illogical to think that Atta could survive in Washington. If they could, they would've already been there. 

[SuperFrank]

Man I didn't expect all of this...they are dieing anyway people...lol

*Breaks federal law*

"Well golly I didn't expect anyone to get upset"

[SuperFrank]

"They can't survive winter."
Ah yes, that's exactly what people thought when they first saw these guys in Scotland:


Turns out they are perfectly capable of surviving the damp cold scottish weather, winter included.


Animals from warmer climate zone always aren't capable of surviving winter until they suddenly can.

It is illogical to think that Atta could survive in Washington. If they could, they would've already been there.

That is not even slightly true, Atta can survive just fine in Florida and would thrive here, and yet they haven't expanded their range into the state. Climate is a one of countless variables that affect an organisms ability to succeed in a particular environment. Apart from climate, a major factor would be the transport of reproductive specimens or viable populations of said species to a new location hundreds or thousands of miles away by ignorant and irresponsible humans.

Edited by SuperFrank, May 13 2020 - 7:11 AM.

[Temperateants]

Man I didn't expect all of this...they are dieing anyway people...lol

Let this be a lesson to not break federal laws and to have some empathy for animals. I know someone who got in serious trouble for importing ants. 

[Serafine]

 

"They can't survive winter."

Ah yes, that's exactly what people thought when they first saw these guys in Scotland:

 

Turns out they are perfectly capable of surviving the damp cold scottish weather, winter included.

 

 

Animals from warmer climate zone always aren't capable of surviving winter until they suddenly can.

It is illogical to think that Atta could survive in Washington. If they could, they would've already been there.

 

I guess that must be the reason african parrots and parakeets didn't exist Scotland, because if they could survive winter they would have already been there - they're not exactly immobile, you know. Should have been quite easy for them to just casually fly across the mediteranean sea and then the channel is just a small hop. So no problem, they can't possibly survive winter... oh wait, they actually can...

[AnthonyP163]

 

 

"They can't survive winter."

Ah yes, that's exactly what people thought when they first saw these guys in Scotland:

 

Turns out they are perfectly capable of surviving the damp cold scottish weather, winter included.

 

 

Animals from warmer climate zone always aren't capable of surviving winter until they suddenly can.

It is illogical to think that Atta could survive in Washington. If they could, they would've already been there.

 

I guess that must be the reason african parrots and parakeets didn't exist Scotland, because if they could survive winter they would have already been there - they're not exactly immobile, you know. Should have been quite easy for them to just casually fly across the mediteranean sea and then the channel is just a small hop. So no problem, they can't possibly survive winter... oh wait, they actually can...

 

Atta does not need to cross a large body of water to get to Washington. This is quite possibly the silliest comparison surrounding this topic I have heard.

 

Even the FUNGUS cannot survive in cold winters like the ones Washington experiences. Stop trying to compare an ant that relies on farming a fungus to a bird. 

 

If Atta in Texas could find a suitable environment in Washington state, it would have been there thousands or millions of years ago. 

[BugFinder]

You don't even need to import a cool ant species to get deleted from most places.  All you have to do is wear a red hat in many places.  It's amazing how everyone thinks they are, or should be empowered to enforce arbitrary rules onto everyone else, and how they insist on herd conformity.   

[gcsnelling]

 

Banning someone for admitting to illegally receiving and possessing an extremely damaging agricultural pest species is not beyond reason. Leaf cutting Attines collectively cost the agricultural industry millions every year. Atta/Acromyrmex are precisely the type of organisms the federal and state governments do not want being moved around without explicit permission.

I agree with this, especially as we are just going into summer, but Atta texana simply can't survive much further north than Texas. If they could, they would already be there as they have had thousands of years to spread. I have heard the story about the guy in England with the Acromyrmex that survived winter parroted many times but it is physically impossible for Acromyrmex or their fungus to survive an English winter. Unless the guy was housing them and feeding them, inside his house, its impossible. What I think actually happened was the colony got large enough to the point where they could escape and forage outside, and they did this for 2 years before someone actually noticed although I have never seen sources for any of the claims. The same goes for Atta texana and the WA winter. I'm not saying that transporting Atta without a permit is okay, I am simply saying that the agricultural worries are null. Permits are very easy to get and don't multiple months as some people think, the only requirement is that you are 18+. 

 

I am familiar with the Acromyrmex incident, the ants escaped and established themselves with the house structure itself.

[RushmoreAnts]

 

 

Banning someone for admitting to illegally receiving and possessing an extremely damaging agricultural pest species is not beyond reason. Leaf cutting Attines collectively cost the agricultural industry millions every year. Atta/Acromyrmex are precisely the type of organisms the federal and state governments do not want being moved around without explicit permission.

I agree with this, especially as we are just going into summer, but Atta texana simply can't survive much further north than Texas. If they could, they would already be there as they have had thousands of years to spread. I have heard the story about the guy in England with the Acromyrmex that survived winter parroted many times but it is physically impossible for Acromyrmex or their fungus to survive an English winter. Unless the guy was housing them and feeding them, inside his house, its impossible. What I think actually happened was the colony got large enough to the point where they could escape and forage outside, and they did this for 2 years before someone actually noticed although I have never seen sources for any of the claims. The same goes for Atta texana and the WA winter. I'm not saying that transporting Atta without a permit is okay, I am simply saying that the agricultural worries are null. Permits are very easy to get and don't multiple months as some people think, the only requirement is that you are 18+. 

 

I am familiar with the Acromyrmex incident, the ants escaped and established themselves with the house structure itself.

 

Meaning the fungus was heated throughout the winter. 

[Serafine]

Atta does not need to cross a large body of water to get to Washington. This is quite possibly the silliest comparison surrounding this topic I have heard.
 
Even the FUNGUS cannot survive in cold winters like the ones Washington experiences. Stop trying to compare an ant that relies on farming a fungus to a bird. 
 
If Atta in Texas could find a suitable environment in Washington state, it would have been there thousands or millions of years ago.

Atta texana does have a hibernation period and the fungus is perfectly able to survive.
And while they might indeed not be capable of surviving somewhere in the woods they are very likely capable of surviving within cities which are much warmer than the rural areas.

 

 

You don't even need to import a cool ant species to get deleted from most places. All you have to do is wear a red hat in many places. It's amazing how everyone thinks they are, or should be empowered to enforce arbitrary rules onto everyone else, and how they insist on herd conformity.

Oh we're making this political now?
Let me guess, you're one of those "special" folks protesting when state governments refuse to let people murder each other with a certain contagious life-threatening respiratory disease because "muh freeedom" and "screw everyone else as long as I get what I want".

Go away, Karen. I'm tired of your selfish entitlement and disregard for everyone else.

Edited by Serafine, May 13 2020 - 5:20 PM.

[AnthonyP163]

 

Atta does not need to cross a large body of water to get to Washington. This is quite possibly the silliest comparison surrounding this topic I have heard.
 
Even the FUNGUS cannot survive in cold winters like the ones Washington experiences. Stop trying to compare an ant that relies on farming a fungus to a bird. 
 
If Atta in Texas could find a suitable environment in Washington state, it would have been there thousands or millions of years ago.

Atta texana does have a hibernation period and the fungus is perfectly able to survive.
And while they might indeed not be capable of surviving somewhere in the woods they are very likely capable of surviving within cities which are much warmer than the rural areas. 

 

 

Washington has at least 4-5 months of the year where Atta and it's fungus would simply not be able to survive. A hibernation for Atta in the southwest would be less than three months, and would not be nearly as cold as the winters in Washington. This is partly why they are not widespread in the United States.

Edited by AnthonyP163, May 13 2020 - 5:28 PM.

[CheetoLord02]

"They can't survive winter."

Ah yes, that's exactly what people thought when they first saw these guys in Scotland:

 

Turns out they are perfectly capable of surviving the damp cold scottish weather, winter included.

 

 

Animals from warmer climate zone always aren't capable of surviving winter until they suddenly can.

This might just be the worst argument I've ever heard for anything, ever. Come on man, it's a warm-blooded creature. Surely you're smart enough to realize how much of a difference that makes. Birds don't go unconscious for several months every winter, of course there is a significantly higher risk of them being able to survive in sub-ideal climates. 

*Breaks federal law*

"Well golly I didn't expect anyone to get upset"

 

This is a ridiculous mindset. I'm not going to go out and encourage people to go import ants, but demonizing people for keeping the ants that they want to keep isn't going to help the community. Shocker, I know. At this point it's almost getting toxic, the number of people that automatically berate people when any exotic species is even slightly mentioned just baffles me. I'm not saying we should all go break the law, but we're acting like a racing community that outcasts people when they break the speed limit.

That is not even slightly true, Atta can survive just fine in Florida and would thrive here, and yet they haven't expanded their range into the state. Climate is a one of countless variables that affect an organisms ability to succeed in a particular environment. Apart from climate, a major factor would be the transport of reproductive specimens or viable populations of said species to a new location hundreds or thousands of miles away by ignorant and irresponsible humans. 

Just because Atta can survive in Florida doesn't mean they are automatically going to exist there. Atta could theoretically survive all over the old world, but they don't exist there because they'd have to cross an entire ocean. If you knew anything about Atta, you'd know the reason why their range doesn't extend into the rest of the southeastern US is because the eastern region of Louisiana serves as a geographical barrier that they cannot get past. They can survive farther east than that region, but can't get there because that region serves as a roadblock. Try again.

 

I guess that must be the reason african parrots and parakeets didn't exist Scotland, because if they could survive winter they would have already been there - they're not exactly immobile, you know. Should have been quite easy for them to just casually fly across the mediteranean sea and then the channel is just a small hop. So no problem, they can't possibly survive winter... oh wait, they actually can...

Atta texana's "hibernation" consists of rougly 2 months of temperatures in the high 30s to mid 40s, in the wild. Washington state's winter consists of temperatures significantly below freezing for at least 3 months, if not up to 5. If the "fungus is perfectly able to survive" in that climate then we'd see A. texana's range extend up to Oklahoma, Arkansas, Kansas, Missouri, etc. We clearly don't see that, providing a pretty solid argument that they can't survive anywhere cooler than their current range. And it's not like cities are significantly warmer than a natural environment, snow still falls in Seattle last I heard. We clearly don't see any of that, providing a pretty solid argument that they can't survive anywhere cooler than their current range. And as I said above the reason why their east/west is restricted isn't because of temperature but because of other climate reasons (too dry in the west, and because of elevation in the east). Distribution of a species, especially a relatively sensitive one like Atta, isn't that simple.

 

Oh we're making this political now?

Let me guess, you're one of those "special" folks protesting when state governments refuse to let people murder each other with a certain contagious life-threatening respiratory disease because "muh freeedom" and "screw everyone else as long as I get what I want".

 

Go away, Karen. I'm tired of your selfish entitlement and disregard for everyone else.

 

And about making it political, c'mon man. We're not gonna get anywhere by calling each other names. Please at least formulate a valid argument before spewing nonsense all over this thread. Thanks.

Edited by CheetoLord02, May 13 2020 - 7:49 PM.

[Mdrogun]

I was in a call with Brian Fisher today and someone brought up importing exotic ants. He stated that the "South American specialist species" (That includes Atta) would have a "near-zero" percent chance of survival in the United States even if they were to walk out your front door. 

 

This is a map of Atta texana's predicted range. The darker the red, the more suitable that area is. Florida is barely suitable for them, and Atta texana is the most cold-tolerant species of Atta. Not to mention the fact that they are a desert species. There aren't any Atta species adapted to live in Florida's climate. Any of the ones found in areas with similar precipitation wouldn't be able to handle the cold.

 

Brian Fisher is correct. The US isn't suitable for the vast majority of specialist ant species found in the new world.

 

You would only run into issues if you went to Argentina and started grabbing something like new Solenopsis spp. and then brought them up here. Nobody is doing that though, and if somebody did I would be angry.

 

Atta spp. cannot survive in Washington. If you think otherwise, you're willingly ignoring what all the current evidence suggests.

[Serafine]

There's a rather interesting journal in the german ant forums - someone had to put his south-east-asian Messor acciculatus colony out of the house because their setup had started to develop a kind of mold that gave him serious respiratory issues.
He put them into a badly insulated flower pot in his garden and they survived a full central european winter that had -30°C temperature spikes.

And then there's obviously the Acromyrmex incident in cold and wet England - if a species that isn't even supposed to hibernate can survive the UK winter near human settlements Atta texana might as well. Especially in a city area with more than enough warm spots.
 
 

 

*Breaks federal law*

"Well golly I didn't expect anyone to get upset"

This is a ridiculous mindset. I'm not going to go out and encourage people to go import ants, but demonizing people for keeping the ants that they want to keep isn't going to help the community. Shocker, I know. At this point it's almost getting toxic, the number of people that automatically berate people when any exotic species is even slightly mentioned just baffles me. I'm not saying we should all go break the law, but we're acting like a racing community that outcasts people when they break the speed limit.

 

Oh no, you totally don't.


 
Yes, introducing a foreign organism capable of replicating itself to an ecosystem, leading to potentially devastating consequences up to the entire destruction of that biome is totally comparable with driving to fast.
You're comparing carelessly firing a gun into the air to setting off a perpetually exploding, self-multiplying hydrogen bomb. But you don't care because the fuse usually burns for about 30-70 years, so you're not around when the area gets incinerated.
It's other people who have to deal with the consequences of your selfish ignorance.
 



Yep, all Serviformica ants are totally harmless, until they aren't: https://www.cabi.org...act/20183153555
By now, Formica fuscocinerea are pretty much the only species in Tübingen's inner city area, they even pushed out the ferocious Lasius niger.

 

And about making it political, c'mon man. We're not gonna get anywhere by calling each other names. Please at least formulate a valid argument before spewing nonsense all over this thread. Thanks.

Considering your ongoing history of illegally smuggling even invasive species like Solenopsis geminata across state borders via plane I'd advice to avoid topics like these. They usually don't end well for you.


 
 

Atta spp. cannot survive in Washington. If you think otherwise, you're willingly ignoring what all the current evidence suggests.

Most of those studies have one particular gigantic flaw - they ignore the fact that city areas are MUCH warmer than the surrounding rural areas, allowing a plethora of invasive species to survive that shouldn't be capable of doing so.
About 90% of all invasive species spend multiple decades around cosy human infrastructure before they set out to conquer the rest of the land.
 
 

You would only run into issues if you went to Argentina and started grabbing something like new Solenopsis spp. and then brought them up here. Nobody is doing that though, and if somebody did I would be angry.

You have no idea of the amount of dumb people smuggling ants all across US state lines. And they don't stop with Atta.
There's one specific user on Formiculture ("Alabama Anter" aka "Yellow Rice" aka Joseph Kim) who never got banned despite it being an open secret he was basically the #1 illegal smuggler of european ants into the US.
I've seen pictures of his Lasius niger, Camponotus ligniperda and Messor barbarus. I'm fairly sure he had Myrmica rubra* at one point as well - there are in fact Canadian "ant shops" selling this species right now.
 

 
 

* "The European fire ant is an invasive species that was introduced around 1900 into the Boston area. It did not spread extensively for several decades, although it was reported in Quebec back in 1915. Perhaps about 30-40 years ago it began to significantly expand its range and was reported in southern Ontario.  In the past 15 years it has moved into the Maritimes (Groden et al. 2005, Wetterer and Radchenko 2010), although until this identification all localizations of the European fire ant in North America have been below 49° N."

"This insect was first detected almost a century ago in Boston, and has since spread to many areas of eastern North America. It has not generally been problematic, but in the past 10-15 years, reports of high colony densities and spread have been increasing. These small red ants are superficially similar to other native Myrmica, but in occupied ground they reach staggeringly high colony densities of up to 4 nests/square metre. They become known to anyone walking on their turf due to their painful stinging attacks in defense of their nests. In areas with large numbers of colonies, activities as innocuous as sitting on the grass can become impossible."
 
"In the paper, Naumann and Higgins report staggeringly high numbers of EFA captures in pitfall trapping in infested areas, compared to moderate numbers of native ants in uninfested habitats. The numbers of Myrmica rubra exceeded the numbers of all native ants by 10 to 1300 times!
 
More worryingly, Myrmica rubra seems to outcompete and eliminate all other native ants, and in infested areas, very few native ants can be found. In addition, other litter arthropods seem to be reduced in infested areas as well, though the reduction in species richness indices is mostly attributable to the loss of the native ants.
British Columbia, as a biologically diverse and relatively warm province with high levels of oceanic trade, may be the testing ground for biological invasions from ants. A second introduced Myrmica, Myrmica specioides, is also mentioned in the paper. Unlike M. rubra, Myrmica specioides queens retain their flight capabilities, and thus there is no feasible way of stopping their spread."

[AntsExodus]

Someone needs to take this topic down please no fighting

[ANTdrew]

It's hard to tell what actually folks are arguing about anymore.

[AntsExodus]

It went to someone needing fungus to Atta Texana has a chance in Florida.

[RushmoreAnts]

I'll give everyone a clear answer, then:

 

NO ATTA IN WASHINGTON. Period. Enough said.

[ANTdrew]

Let's leave it at that, please. Final word for AntsDakota.

[SuperFrank]

It doesn't matter if they could survive or not, what matters is that it is against the law. You may not agree with it but if you break the law you are, by definition, a criminal. Not only are you breaking the law, you are breaking a federal law who's entire purpose is to protect our nation's food supply. And in this specific instance you are breaking it by transporting legitimate plant pests who cause extensive damage with few effective methods for controlling them. You have absolutely zero idea what pathogens non-native organisms could contain or what an accidental release could do to your local ecosystem. I personally know someone who works in plant science who's colleague destroyed Georgia's entire peach industry by accidentally releasing non-native nematodes contained in samples from Florida.

Why is it that actual scientists who's entire life's work is the study and control of arthropods and plants all agree that transporting ants is a horribly bad idea but kids on the internet think they know so much better because they have some ants in their bedroom. It is every bit as asinine as arguing against global warming or in favor of a flat earth and is 100% a result of ignorance.

Edited by SuperFrank, May 14 2020 - 10:16 AM.