86 replies to this topic

[Vendayn]

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Edited by Vendayn, January 1 2021 - 10:49 PM.

[gcsnelling]

In entomology as in all science based endeavors, accuracy is everything. True no one can ever be 100 percent accurate but one must do their best not wildly pull numbers out of their butt.

[Vendayn]

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Edited by Vendayn, January 1 2021 - 10:49 PM.

[Mdrogun]

I love these journals! I have been following them forever, even the older thread you have somewhere.

 

On the topic of estimations, I hate that people are attacking you for this.

 

It's not even entirely unreasonable to say they had thousands of queens, or tens of thousands of queens. It is well known Pheidole megacepahala queens lay around ~300 eggs a month, and Pheidole megacephala workers live 1-2 months. Optimistically, that would mean that if a colony has 200 queens it could support ~100,000 workers. However, this is just not how the real-world works. Queens aren't always producing at 100% capacity, workers are killed constantly (in this case L. humile battles xD), the queens live relatively short lives and need to be replaced relatively frequently (consuming some of those 300 eggs they're laying), and the desert heat likely decreases their lifespan as well. It's probably more realistic to assume that, in this instance, they have a queen-to-worker ratio of 1:200-1:400. So even if the colony only had 300,000 workers instead of your millions estimate, that would mean they most likely have 750-1,500 queens.

 

Since we can't know colony size outside of "very large" it's idiotic to even argue about this. You were clearly trying to emphasize that they were very large, I don't think anyone is going to be citing you in their next paper they publish on Pheidole megacepahala colony size and queen count.

[Vendayn]

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Edited by Vendayn, January 1 2021 - 10:49 PM.

[Vendayn]

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Edited by Vendayn, January 1 2021 - 10:49 PM.

[drtrmiller]

I have made some quick calculations to add context to your estimation:

 

10,000 queens per 3 city blocks = 3,333 queens per city block

 

1 city block = 100,000 sq. ft.

 

3,333 queens / 100,000 sq. ft. = 1 queen / 30 sq. ft.

 

1 queen lays 292 eggs per 30 days.

 

292 eggs / 30 days * 10,000 queens = 2.92 million workers per month

 

Natural lifespan of 2-3 months per worker = 5.84M to 8.76M workers living at any given time

 

5.84M to 8.76M workers living at any given time / 300,000 sq. ft. = 20 to 29 workers per sq. ft.

 

Average volume of 1 minor worker (per CAD model) = 0.5 mm³

 

Volume of all workers at any given time = 2.92 liters to 4.38 liters

 

1 brown rat = 0.24 liters

 

3 city blocks of Pheidole with 10K queens = 12 to 18 total brown rats = 4 to 6 brown rats per city block

 

1 house cat = 18 brown rats

 

At most, all 3 city blocks equals only 1 cat of ants.

 

Seems like a pretty low number to me.

Edited by drtrmiller, April 25 2020 - 1:32 AM.

[Vendayn]

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Edited by Vendayn, January 1 2021 - 10:49 PM.

[BugFinder]

NO PICTURES

 

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 The colony here has been here for years, probably came when they landscaped the area with a bunch of plants after a year I moved in here. Or maybe someone moved in with an infested plant pot or something. Either way I reported them and nothing was ever done, I've also reported two other supercolonies of Pheidole megacephala and I know at least one was never done about. I reported Solenopsis invicta here too and they are still around. So in southern California, the Pheidole megacephala are in three locations that I've seen. One being in Palm Springs, and the other being ----- (can't say due to privacy reasons, but the same general area of Palm Springs). Both areas in the heat of the desert, but get irrigated enough to allow them (and Solenopsis invicta+Argentine ants) to thrive. Okay so maybe they are a similar Pheidole that is invasive, there is one other that has popped up in California (Pheidole teneriffana) but pretty sure its just Pheidole megacephala. Definitely not native, the native Pheidole don't have territories that expands out three blocks with tens of thousands or more of queens. The one in the private location is a bit more limited because irrigation isn't as much and its really dry outside the ---, but still quite a big colony.

 

 

 

that is so cool!!  It's terriblle that a non native has moved in, but argentines have already displaced natives in many areas, and these interactions between Pheidole and argentines are so cool.   Is there any chance you could collect queens from the Pheidole colony?

[Vendayn]

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Edited by Vendayn, January 1 2021 - 10:50 PM.

[BugFinder]

 They don't fly far though, only like 10 to 15 feet or something. Don't want to collect them though, and not interested in keeping a colony of them either. They are however really easy to care for, kept them before. Probably one of the easiest ants I ever had. I just have very little interest in keeping or catching a non-native ant and even less an invasive one. But they are rather interesting and cool as far as invasives go. I'd vastly prefer native ants though.

that is so cool!!  It's terriblle that a non native has moved in, but argentines have already displaced natives in many areas, and these interactions between Pheidole and argentines are so cool.   Is there any chance you could collect queens from the Pheidole colony?

 

 

 

Yeah I get that.  I like the native ants also, but I also like peculier ants.  and I don't think there is anything wrong with keeping an ant species that can be collected outside in the yard, even if they are an exotic.

 

The good thing is I'm very good at killing ants (much better than I am at keeping them, lol) so any ants around my home that aren't inside my colony are in big trouble if they are not natives lol.  I don't kill native ants unless they are causing a conflict (invading someone's home, as an example).

Edited by BugFinder, May 2 2020 - 5:12 PM.

[BugFinder]

I have made some quick calculations to add context to your estimation:

 

10,000 queens per 3 city blocks = 3,333 queens per city block

 

1 city block = 100,000 sq. ft.

 

3,333 queens / 100,000 sq. ft. = 1 queen / 30 sq. ft.

 

1 queen lays 292 eggs per 30 days.

 

292 eggs / 30 days * 10,000 queens = 2.92 million workers per month

 

Natural lifespan of 2-3 months per worker = 5.84M to 8.76M workers living at any given time

 

5.84M to 8.76M workers living at any given time / 300,000 sq. ft. = 20 to 29 workers per sq. ft.

 

Average volume of 1 minor worker (per CAD model) = 0.5 mm³

 

Volume of all workers at any given time = 2.92 liters to 4.38 liters

 

1 brown rat = 0.24 liters

 

3 city blocks of Pheidole with 10K queens = 12 to 18 total brown rats = 4 to 6 brown rats per city block

 

1 house cat = 18 brown rats

 

At most, all 3 city blocks equals only 1 cat of ants.

 

Seems like a pretty low number to me.

hahaha posts like this is why I love this forum!!   That's great stuff!

[gcsnelling]

 

 They don't fly far though, only like 10 to 15 feet or something. Don't want to collect them though, and not interested in keeping a colony of them either. They are however really easy to care for, kept them before. Probably one of the easiest ants I ever had. I just have very little interest in keeping or catching a non-native ant and even less an invasive one. But they are rather interesting and cool as far as invasives go. I'd vastly prefer native ants though.

that is so cool!!  It's terriblle that a non native has moved in, but argentines have already displaced natives in many areas, and these interactions between Pheidole and argentines are so cool.   Is there any chance you could collect queens from the Pheidole colony?

 

 

 

Yeah I get that.  I like the natie ants also, but I also like peculier ants.  and I don't think there is anything wrong with keeping an ant species that can be collected outside in the yard, even if they are an exotic.

 

The good thing is I'm very good at killing ants (much better than I am at keeping them, lol) so any ants around my home that aren't inside my colony are in big trouble if they are not natives lol.  I don't kill native ants unless they are causing a conflict (invading someone's home, as an example).

 

Whether you are good at killing queens or not if you were to move Pheidole megacephala into your area that would be a horribly irresponsible action.

[BugFinder]

 

 

 They don't fly far though, only like 10 to 15 feet or something. Don't want to collect them though, and not interested in keeping a colony of them either. They are however really easy to care for, kept them before. Probably one of the easiest ants I ever had. I just have very little interest in keeping or catching a non-native ant and even less an invasive one. But they are rather interesting and cool as far as invasives go. I'd vastly prefer native ants though.

that is so cool!!  It's terriblle that a non native has moved in, but argentines have already displaced natives in many areas, and these interactions between Pheidole and argentines are so cool.   Is there any chance you could collect queens from the Pheidole colony?

 

 

 

Yeah I get that.  I like the natie ants also, but I also like peculier ants.  and I don't think there is anything wrong with keeping an ant species that can be collected outside in the yard, even if they are an exotic.

 

The good thing is I'm very good at killing ants (much better than I am at keeping them, lol) so any ants around my home that aren't inside my colony are in big trouble if they are not natives lol.  I don't kill native ants unless they are causing a conflict (invading someone's home, as an example).

 

Whether you are good at killing queens or not if you were to move Pheidole megacephala into your area that would be a horribly irresponsible action.

 

 

yeah it would be just terrible if they outcompeted the argentine ants.

[gcsnelling]

Well I really hope you are just trying to get a rise out of people with your attitude towards invasive ants.

Edited by gcsnelling, May 2 2020 - 3:46 AM.

[BugFinder]

lol.   hey if you want to start lobbing inuslts, we can play that game....  I'm down 

[TennesseeAnts]

No more flame wars pls....

[gcsnelling]

Nope, my apologies for that particular comment, such a cavalier attitude towards invasive species really punches my buttons.

[PurdueEntomology]

Quibbling over how many queens/workers there are is kind of silly. We will never really know how many there are, especially without pictures...  

Hmm, actually "quibbling" about the factual biology and phenotype expressions of any of our cultured ant species and ants in general is not "silly" for only in observing and documenting not guessing and surmising these phenotypic expressions: biology, behavior etc are we to be able to honestly and correctly discuss our ants. The caveat of this though is our observations and documentations may not and most likely DO NOT circumscribe the real out-there status of the species under discussion. Only under repeatably verifiable observations and documentations are we going to get a true picture of their biology and behavior, even if in cultured and non-natural conditions. It is through our collective small efforts at proper identification of species, biology and behavior are we able to contribute in a legitimate and scientifically acceptable manner our "hobby" and "pass time" as formiculturalists and allow us to be ranked among true naturalists and expositors of our co-shared natural world. Also, by doing so we support each others personal efforts and struggles in maintaining healthy and viable colonies through which we find personal pleasure and are able to communicate what we learn  between not only our fellow formiculturalists but to the wider public at large, let alone to those who intentionally have taken it upon themselves to devote their time and energy towards the study of ants professionally: myrmecologists and entomologists.  

Edited by PurdueEntomology, May 2 2020 - 4:14 AM.

[Vendayn]

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Edited by Vendayn, January 1 2021 - 10:50 PM.