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More Information for the Captive Release release debate


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#1 Offline ConcordAntman - Posted April 11 2020 - 4:48 AM

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The debate on releasing captive raised colonies appears regularly in our forums. It often devolves into a flame war which I hope not to reignite. In that vein, I just finished this article from the New York Times:  https://nyti.ms/2Xj1Q4s Researchers scientifically evaluated the fitness of captive raised Monarch butterflies compared to a cohort of captured wild Monarchs. The findings suggest the released captive Monarchs are less fit, demonstrating a myriad of physical differences from their wild counterparts, and that they are less successful in migration. The article is based on the research reported in this study: https://royalsociety.../rsbl.2019.0922 In their discussion, the researchers question the benefit of captive rearing programs as a supplement to a healthy global Monarch population. Another study cited in this Times article: https://www.pnas.org...nt/116/29/14671 describes the loss of migratory behavior in some captive raised Monarch populations. Both scientific articles suggest the release of this captive raised insect can alter the behavior of its wild population. 
 

If we take this concept across species, then there is a strong suggestion that captive release of our colonies could pose a risk to the species we care about in the wild. My logic may be built on a “house of cards”. While workers would become prey, would a captive raised alate survive in the wild or have the appropriate hormonal cues to trigger a nuptial flight? Doubtful. But if one took the care to replace a captive colony in the ecological niche from which it was harvested? Food for thought... As implied in the Hippocratic Oath, aren’t we bound to “first do no harm”?

 

 


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#2 Offline PurdueEntomology - Posted April 11 2020 - 5:57 AM

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Thanks ConcordAntman, I would add this link: https://www.research...epithema_humile...from the abstract:   These findings showed that ant colonies kept in the lab experience changes in gene expression, resulting in downstream effects.Therefore, lab ant colonies are not necessarily representative of wild colonies when conducting experiments on the gene expression, behavior, and physiology of these colonies. (bold font is from myself)


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#3 Offline NickAnter - Posted April 11 2020 - 5:57 AM

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We simply do not know enough to make conclusions. We do not have enough evidence nor info either way for ants. And, there are also many different species of ant that will react differently.


Edited by NickAnter, April 11 2020 - 6:00 AM.

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Hi there! I went on a 6 month or so hiatus, in part due, and in part cause of the death of my colonies. 

However, I went back to the Sierras, and restarted my collection, which is now as follows:

Aphaenogaster uinta, Camponotus vicinus, Camponotus modoc, Formica cf. aserva, Formica cf. micropthalma, Formica cf. manni, Formica subpolita, Formica cf. subaenescens, Lasius americanus, Manica invidia, Pogonomyrmex salinus, Pogonomyrmex sp. 1, Solenopsis validiuscula, & Solenopsis sp. 3 (new Sierra variant). 


#4 Offline Skwiggledork - Posted April 11 2020 - 6:07 AM

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We simply do not know enough to make conclusions. We do not have enough evidence nor info either way for ants. And, there are also many different species of ant that will react differently.

This is how I feel. We don't have a lot of information, so we should err on the side of caution. There is technically a debate as to if animals can feel pain, but most of us would agree hurting an animal intentionally is wrong.

Captive ant colonies are moved from where they are found, fed a diet they would not have had and kept in conditions that they would not have been subjected to in the wild. All those things "could" have an effect on the ants and if release could cause the colony to die off or worse cause something to the wild populations of not only that species but others all the way up the food chain.


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#5 Offline RushmoreAnts - Posted April 11 2020 - 6:18 AM

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Which is why we probably should not release our colonies until we do know enough to draw conclusions.
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"God made..... all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds (including ants). And God saw that it was good. Genesis 1:25 NIV version

 

Keeping:

Tetramorium immigrans

Formica cf. pallidefulva, cf. incerta, cf. argentea

Formica cf. aserva, cf. subintegra

Pogonomyrmex occidentalis

Pheidole bicarinata

Myrmica sp.

Lasius neoniger, brevicornis


#6 Offline TheMicroPlanet - Posted April 11 2020 - 8:12 AM

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Would natural formicaria aid in the fitness of a captive bred colony? It seems to me that the Monarchs weren't fit because they weren't bred in an environment resembling the natural world they would've known and would've adapted to (and that there ancestors adapted to).



#7 Offline ANTdrew - Posted April 11 2020 - 4:30 PM

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This seems to support the idea some have expressed that captive queens are allowed to survive artificially when the less fit ones would have perished. Only the fittest queens ever make it, which is why I wish we would also condemn the practice of removing established colonies from the wild.
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#8 Offline Da_NewAntOnTheBlock - Posted April 11 2020 - 4:49 PM

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I personally only release my colony if they are inevitably going to die (thus not upsetting the ecosystem) or if I feel I can no longer care for said colony as they have had a large worker die off, or I simply feel that they are better suited to be in nature and they are still small enough not to make a major effect on the ecosystem. Furthermore, I release them in a spot where  it supplies them ample growing room and not being immediately close enough to mount an attack on a ant colony 'too close'. I personally think that releasing colonies are like all things, meant to be done in moderation if at all. Furthermore, I make it a rule of thumb to be prepared to take care of the colony for 10+ years when I catch the queen or acquire them. I hope this provided ample and sufficient information to show my side of the releasing debate. I agree with

 

 

We simply do not know enough to make conclusions. We do not have enough evidence nor info either way for ants. And, there are also many different species of ant that will react differently.

This is how I feel. We don't have a lot of information, so we should err on the side of caution. There is technically a debate as to if animals can feel pain, but most of us would agree hurting an animal intentionally is wrong.

Captive ant colonies are moved from where they are found, fed a diet they would not have had and kept in conditions that they would not have been subjected to in the wild. All those things "could" have an effect on the ants and if release could cause the colony to die off or worse cause something to the wild populations of not only that species but others all the way up the food chain.

Due to the fact we simply just don't know enough. We haven't made the scientific leaps and bounds to draw any conclusions about this type of stuff and should be cautious. However I also concur with

 

Thanks ConcordAntman, I would add this link: https://www.research...epithema_humile...from the abstract:   These findings showed that ant colonies kept in the lab experience changes in gene expression, resulting in downstream effects.Therefore, lab ant colonies are not necessarily representative of wild colonies when conducting experiments on the gene expression, behavior, and physiology of these colonies. (bold font is from myself)

We simply don't know if we can adequately reproduce the conditions an ant colony would experience in the wild and thus, may not even know their natural behaviors, nor they're egg laying schedule for crying out loud (just an example, however the point I was intending to be made clear has been made clear)! So for those reasons, I hold my opinion firm and dearly to my heart.


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#9 Offline ConcordAntman - Posted April 11 2020 - 6:12 PM

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Thank you all for your comments. My understanding of the papers I’ve linked is that captive Monarchs raised to maturity are different from comparable wild Monarchs. They have smaller, paler wings and a weaker grip. They often are not capable of seasonal migration. When released into the wild they may have a negative effect on the wild Monarch population. 

I think we would all agree that our formicaria poorly simulate wild conditions. At best, we simplify the variables and limit the scope of the environment our ants live in. By inference, these papers suggest that this simplification and limitation could subtly alter our charges compared to their sisters in the wild. We don’t know how much (if any) of the data reported pertains to ant colonies but the consistency demonstrated between the articles gives me pause when considering releasing captive ants to the wild. 



#10 Offline Barristan - Posted April 11 2020 - 6:58 PM

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The study about Argentine ants only examined gene expression changes in one direction but what if the colony was released again to the wild. Why shouldn't gene expression change again?

 

Some ants also adapt their colony structure to certain factors, like enemy ant colonies: https://www.research...fic_competition
 

So if there is no competition they might develop fewer soldiers which might also decrease their chances of survival in the wild.

 

But I don't know why you worry so much about colonies being less fit for survival in the wild? Natural selection will get rid of them quite soon. So no negative genes will spread in the long term. That's how evolution has been working for billions of years.

 

That's why I'm not convinced and I also don't follow the argument that we shouldn't do something only because there is maybe a tiny chance that it might be negative. I mean there is a chance that I get struck by a meteoroid when I leave my house. So should I only leave my house wearing a helmet?

 

Let's compare that to the current Coronavirus crisis. We know a lot about the mortality rate, the rate new people are infected on a daily basis, etc. So we have a lot of data to estimate the danger. But do you really think people would accept a lockdown if we hadn't that data? I don't think so. Myrmecologists demand to not release native ants, because it might be dangerous, not keep non-native ants because it might be dangerous, etc. but what data do they provide to substantiate their claims.


Edited by Barristan, April 11 2020 - 7:20 PM.


#11 Offline ConcordAntman - Posted April 12 2020 - 3:31 AM

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The study about Argentine ants only examined gene expression changes in one direction but what if the colony was released again to the wild. Why shouldn't gene expression change again?

 

I would agree with this point. Per PurdueEntomology’s link, if lab introduction downregulated certain gene expression I would think that returning the colony to the wild could result in subsequent upregulation of those same genes (though this is unproven). The article you cite demonstrates a lab-inducible caste ratio change. With such changes, I would agree that this hypothetical colony would be a less successful competitor in the wild until it had upregulated back to the wild state. Survivability would be questionable but not impossible. Looking at the inferences from the Monarch articles I provided, the concern is that even a less successful competitor can survive well enough to alter the gene pool and change behavior of a species (as in loss of migratory behavior). I agree that the risk is low but, evidence suggests the risk exists. So, I choose to avoid it.

 

An analogy. At end of mission, NASA spends time and money to select trajectories for its deep-space probes to our gas giants that preclude the possibility of them crashing on potentially life bearing moons (Europa, Enceladus) and contaminating them with microbes from Earth. The risk is low, but it exists. 


Edited by ConcordAntman, April 12 2020 - 3:59 AM.

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#12 Offline PurdueEntomology - Posted April 12 2020 - 4:33 AM

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Despite the slights against myrmecologists, which I find without merit, I would say as Dr. Fordyce, one of our evolutionary biologists, that "Your model is your model, you make it do as you want, it is neither wrong nor right" meaning, science and empirical approaches by "professionals" sic myrmecologists to cardiologists, work and speak from their experience and knowledge, and that is only within a spectrum of objective truth, it is NOT the truth nor wholly explicative of what ACTUALLY exists out there yet it may and often does help to explain and describe what is out there.  For this thread I am speaking of phenotypic expressions of generationally cultured colonies vis-a-vis in situ colonies. One may release or not release, endemics or exotics, we each individually weigh out our personal criteria in making those decisions.  I live in East Tennessee, last August I was looking for more colonies of T. sessile in the Chattanooga area and to my myrmecological anecdotal surprise that not only in large sampled areas within a couple of urban surrounded state parks but also in higher natural areas outside the city I only found 1 colony of a Camponotus but in every other niche I found Brachyponera chinensis.  How long, and How this exotic got into the Chattanooga area has yet to be determined but I clearly saw the "anecdotal" and as not yet "proven" effects of releasing an exotic or minimally contributing to its genomic composition in a population. We must also be mindful of both vertical and  horizontal transmission of viruses and bacteria that may have detrimental effects on populations of endemic arthropods which our cultured colonies may be the source of introduction.  Just having an attitude of "fit for survival" is begging the claim and in a time of demonstrable detrimental anthropogenic effects on species, environments and populations we should all be mindful stewards of our "hobby" and God forbid  "professional" attitudes.  Cheers!!  Tschüß!


Edited by PurdueEntomology, April 12 2020 - 5:02 AM.

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#13 Offline Serafine - Posted April 12 2020 - 5:35 AM

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Let's compare that to the current Coronavirus crisis. We know a lot about the mortality rate, the rate new people are infected on a daily basis, etc. So we have a lot of data to estimate the danger. But do you really think people would accept a lockdown if we hadn't that data? I don't think so. Myrmecologists demand to not release native ants, because it might be dangerous, not keep non-native ants because it might be dangerous, etc. but what data do they provide to substantiate their claims.

That's a dumb comparison. We know a lot about a how pandemics develop due to our experience with seasonal influenza epidemics, the spanish flu, brid flu, swine flu, SARS, MERS and measles outbreaks (which mostly happen because people are too dumb to vaccinate their kids these days). Most of the data used for this analysis doesn't come from Covid-19 experiences at all but is just the known traits of the current Corona virus applied to our well-developed pandemic spread templates.
We have no complete data on how many people would actually die if we didn't have a lockdown imposed (although we might still get that data as there's a few red states that still haven't done lockdown orders), it's all based on a partial analysis (mostly data from China and South Korea) and our pre-existing knowledge of how pandemics spread and that lockdowns DO actually work (because those actually happened during the spanish flu and MERS and there's solid data about death rates for both).

We already knew how dangerous a pandemic virus can be from our experience with OTHER pandemics, just as we know how dangerous invasive ants can be from our experience with OTHER invasive organisms (and actually even invasive ants themselves).

 

The findings suggest the released captive Monarchs are less fit, demonstrating a myriad of physical differences from their wild counterparts, and that they are less successful in migration.

I don't think migratory flying solitairy insects are even remotely comparable to non-migratory eusocial insects. Obviously captive-bred insects will have a lesser overall fitness than wild populations (because giving them ideal conditions is part of the project, natural selection is mostly turned off) but we still have no idea how migration in insects even works - obviously their parents can't teach them anything (because they're dead) so it has to be something that's triggered by genetics (or even worse, epicgenetics).
This gets even more complicated when a species cannot complete it's migration cycle within a generation but requires three generations to do so. There could be a generation that is basically unable to migrate (or cannot migrate any other part of the route than the one it is supposed to) and if you raise that one and try to get it to migrate (or to travel a part of the route it normally doesn't due to being the wrong generation), well, that's obviously setting things up for failure.
 
We do know ants can adapt to different conditions (like Pheidole having more soldiers in the presence of Solenopsis invicta colonies or some species even raising their lost 3rd "supersoldier" caste due to an overwhelming availabilty of high protein junk food) so they're likely much more adaptable than solitairy migratory butterflies or moths. Generally butterflies require much more luck to become invasive anyway as their larval stages are often hyperspecialized to eat one species of plant and one species of plant only, whereas ants usually are generalists that eat a broad variety of insects or plants (in case of leafcutters) and usually don't care what kind of aphid, leafhopper, stinkbug or catterpillar (3d-printed feeder) supplies them with sugars either.
 

I mean there is a chance that I get struck by a meteoroid when I leave my house. So should I only leave my house wearing a helmet?

That's not even remotely a fitting comparison and also a super self-centered way of thinking about the environment. An ant becoming invasive doesn't just affect YOU, in fact it may not affect YOU at all - but it can smash the entire ecosystem around you leading to long term consequences YOU won't even have to deal with in YOUR life. You're just screwing up the land for everyone who comes after you.

Yes, most ant species do not get invasive if set free and even less do actually become a problem. The problem is what happens IF they manage to become invasive and start to dominate any ecoystem. There are areas in Canada where Myrmica rubra makes up 99.99% of the entire ant fauna, having driven all native ants into complete extinction. We cannot even begin to tell what kind of long term consequences this will have for other animal groups like spiders (which are often greatly reduced in areas dominated by predatory ants), tree pests and in the end even the woods themselves.

There are enough expamples where are a SINGLE predator species managed to completely change the entire composition of an ecosystem, like brown tree snakes on Guam (where the complete eradication of birds on the island has not just caused the spider populations to explode turning the woods into a glimmering sea of silk but is also fundamentally destroying the woodland ecosystem itself as the trees can no longer disperse their seeds due to the utter lack of birds leading to increased erosion and hillside biomes becoming permanently uninhabitable for native plants and animals) or the european wasps in New Zealand (which by drinking all the nectar from tree aphids made entire honeywood ecosystems collapse within a few years, leading to massive extinction events for insects, fungi, reptiles and birds that relied on that honeydew for their survival).

Dumping an exotic ant species into the wild is more like building a nuclear powerplant in your backyard - it probably won't ever suffer a meltdown but IF it does it will make the entire area uninhabitable for most of the currently present animals. Actually, it is worse than that because not even a nuclear explosion can permanently change the fundamental composition of an entire ecosystem - an invasive species can.

We DO have data for that, it may not be always be ants (though in some cases it is, looking at you Anoplolepis gracilipes and Pheidole megacephala) but the devastating and PERMANENT, IRREVERSIBLE damage imported plants and animals can do to ecosystems is VERY well documented in countless instances.
And as long as we don't have an absolutely unfailable knowledge of which species can become invasive in a certain biome and which can't releasing ANY kind of exotic animal is essentially playing a game of russian roulette using a revolver loaded with a Pandora's Box worse than a strategic nuclear warhead. You may hear a click most of the time but if you don't you're looking at the potential complete and utter long-term destruction of your existing ecosystem. And there is no way to restore it to it's original state - once it's gone it's lost forever and it won't come back.


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#14 Offline Barristan - Posted April 12 2020 - 8:17 AM

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Provide enough data that might convince me otherwise it is just a waste of time to further argue with you guys. Have fun.

 

You argue like Buschinger between, he has the same style of argumentation (calling other's dumb etc).


Edited by Barristan, April 12 2020 - 8:19 AM.


#15 Offline Serafine - Posted April 12 2020 - 9:14 AM

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https://pdfs.semanti...b0b16609750.pdf
 
"They also occur at unusually high densities compared to previously established species. Myrmica rubra represented more than 99.99% of the total ant fauna caught in the infested areas, and their capture numbers in the plant communities ranged from 10 to 1300 times the total number of ants collected in corresponding M. rubra-free areas. The numbers of several other taxa of insects and non-insect arthropods were also reduced where was present (also reported by Gargas et al. 2007)."

 

 

The main issue with invasive species is that in many cases the native predators will not eat them, this is especially true for ants which are avoided by many predators anyway. Here's a nice story that potraits this particularly well:

In Canada when they found out that one of their most valueable salmon species really loved an introduced species of shrimp (Mysis relicta) and grew to amazing sizes feeding on it they had the brilliant idea to dump this shrimp into over 100 smaller lakes. 1981 that thing made it into Montana's Flathead Lake, one of largest lakes in the western US, where none of the native salmons ate it. Fishers that had caught over 100.000 salmons per year before couldn't catch even a single one in 1988 and 1989. The large fishing eagles and several other bird species went away, just like Otters, Coyotes, Grizzlies and the like. Tourist numbers collapsed from 50.000 to less than a 1000. The entire area's economy collapsed. But what can one small species of shrimp or ant possibly do to a foreign ecosystem...


Edited by Serafine, April 12 2020 - 9:15 AM.

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#16 Offline ConcordAntman - Posted April 13 2020 - 4:59 PM

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Quote

The findings suggest the released captive Monarchs are less fit, demonstrating a myriad of physical differences from their wild counterparts, and that they are less successful in migration.

I don't think migratory flying solitairy insects are even remotely comparable to non-migratory eusocial insects.

 

Serafine,

I agree on this point but, the Monarch study cited suggests a trend in an insect model that demonstrates an adverse effect on the general Monarch population when captive raised Monarchs are released to the wild. I’m sure you know that many of the drugs we use are tested in mouse, rabbit, or chimpanzee models to assess efficacy or toxicity as an indicator of the drug’s action in humans. We differ greatly from these mammals yet our science uses the information gained from studies employing dissimilar mammals to frame how we use current medication. Is it not reasonable then, to consider a study in an insect model (though a dissimilar insect) that demonstrates an effect on that insect’s general population instructive when contemplating captive release of insect species more broadly?

 

 


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#17 Offline Serafine - Posted April 14 2020 - 6:33 AM

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Serafine,
I agree on this point but, the Monarch study cited suggests a trend in an insect model that demonstrates an adverse effect on the general Monarch population when captive raised Monarchs are released to the wild. I’m sure you know that many of the drugs we use are tested in mouse, rabbit, or chimpanzee models to assess efficacy or toxicity as an indicator of the drug’s action in humans. We differ greatly from these mammals yet our science uses the information gained from studies employing dissimilar mammals to frame how we use current medication. Is it not reasonable then, to consider a study in an insect model (though a dissimilar insect) that demonstrates an effect on that insect’s general population instructive when contemplating captive release of insect species more broadly?

This is an issue created by how taxonomic systematics are arranged. Insects are a way older and way more diverse group than mammals. The basal group to which ants belong (Hymenoptera) has exploded into diversity over 280 million years ago (the stem group Insecta is an estimated 480 million years old) while the Eutheria - modern placentarian mammals which include mice, rabbits, chimpanzees and other common lab animals - are just around 125 million years old (their mammalian stem group is around 200 million years old but nobody really does lab tests on marsupials or monotremata so that can be neglected when comparing lab mammals to insects) and really only exploded into diversity around 65 million years ago.

 

A genetic study from 2015 indicates that the group of Formicinae (basically the acid-spraying ants containing genuses like Lasius, Formica, Camponotus, Nylanderia, etc.) alone is somewhere between 104-117 million years old which means ants themselves are less related to each other than the entire group containing mice, rabbits, chimpanzees and humans. And were not even remotely in the range of relationship distance between ants and moths/butterflies.

 

As I said above, yes, obviously captive breeding will inevitably allow "weaker" individuals to survive that wouldn't make in the wild. This is an inevitable component of captive breeding. But this is only a part of the problem. We are talking about butterflies relying on a single plant genus (milkweeds) for their larvae to eat while doing a migration cycle that takes them two to four generations to complete and we still have absolutely no clue about how they manage to do that - there definitely have to be some genetic and environmental triggers for it that we don't even have the slightest shred of understanding of. Additionally butterflies usually are specialists and can only successfully establish themselves in a new environment when there's a very specific type of plant that their larvae like to eat (often this plant itself is an exotic species which has been imported before but occasionally one of the native plants just happens have the perfect taste).

 

This is a FAR more complex situation than an ant colony that can just be dumped anywhere and will immediately start to explore its surroundings in search for sugar and protein. Most ants are generalists and don't care what kind of plant or arthropod they eat. I have seen people successfully feeding cabbage to their leafcutters and I doubt that most wild ant colonies have ever seen any of the feeder insects commonly sold at pet stores. Ants in general (excluding the hyperspecialized ones) are FAR better equipped than butterflies to become invasives that not only manage to establish themselves in a foreign environment but to utterly dominate it to a point where they displace all native ants and push several other groups of insects and spiders to the brink of extinction causing cascade effects up the food chain resluting in a complete change of the fundamental composition of an ecosystem by culling the populations of animals that act as irrelaceable pollinators and seeds dispersers for flowers and trees.

We haven't seen too much of this so far because those effects usually take decades (or even centuries) to unravel but the examples of Guam, New Zealand and the Victoria Sea where these effects are actually starting to manifest should be more than enough of a warning.

 

Releasing native ants is questionable (usually it just dooms the colony to a more or less quick death unless their keeper really prepares an appropriate nesting place for them), releasing exotic ants is a gamble that can, over the course of several decades or even centuries, result in the complete and utter loss of an entire ecosystem.


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#18 Offline ConcordAntman - Posted April 14 2020 - 5:05 PM

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Well stated. We agree!!






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