162 replies to this topic

[DDD101DDD]

 

I think that the reason the server owner/moderators doesn't like illegal ants is because they want to have a somewhat professional server.

It's a Discord server primarily for hobbyists advertised for people of all skill levels. Additionally, they don't have to allow illegal activity in the server as that is against Discord ToS. It becomes problematic when they're banning people who literally just keep a colony of ants that they got illegally. Those are still people part of the hobby, and whether or not they keep illegals should not be the business of people on Discord.

 

Well the server is not the entirety of the hobby. If you're not part of the server you're still an antkeeper.
 

[soulsynapse]

Our policies are the way they are because we're capable of seeing beyond our nose.

 

You're not entitled to the group. This is why you made your own server. I don't care if you have or not.

 

You can read our rules here: https://www.antscihu...t/discord-rules

 

Specifically what it has to say under rule theory:

• When you join a community and make public posts, you generally enter an agreement to abide by rules, lots of which typically restrict freedom of speech. You see this on twitter (rules against abuse being part of the terms of service) and facebook (policies against hate speech specifically also incorporated into their TOS).

• These kinds of restrictions come into play when you do work for someone else, or when you enter private homes or businesses as you can be bodily ejected or have the police escort you out at the owner's discretion. Informally, we have these listed as our rules. This is accepted practice.

• The reason we do this is because running a discord takes a lot of time. It started from nothing, and we slowly grew it into what it is today. Discord policy allows a discord server to effectively belong to the people who run it because it would be nothing without them, literally. Letting terrible content through, not moderating the discussion, etc, the discord wouldn't attract the kind of users we want and the users we would want to retain would begin to leave.

• We have a lot of lofty aspirations for the community and the hobby. Many types of people, such as those that do not get along with others, have no respect for the laws, or who are simply unable to contribute meaningfully are incompatible with these aspirations.

• We also have a limited amount of time to deal with problems that arise, so while we try our best to be incredibly patient, with some users taking upwards of 40 hours collective mod time where we believe they’re not a lost cause, it cannot continue forever.

• The bottom line is we are as patient and careful with what we do as we can, we also have a community to protect. Protecting includes making sure that the moderation team is composed of sensible people, as well as taking the time to assure the community that we’re working towards making it better. But it also means removing people that detract from the moderators being able to do good work elsewhere.

 

The disappointing thing is all of you know that we're not acting in bad faith, but argue like we do.

 

Overall our policies benefit the community through things like being able to work with USDA, having a 3 hour slot at the entomology conference coming up or even just the AMA with Miles this Saturday. There's some more really awesome stuff coming down the pipe that I can't talk about because we conduct ourselves in such a way that we're privy to that kind of sensitive information. We're worthy of people's trust.

 

So.. what remains is a bunch of people who couldn't follow really simple rules and are absolutely pressed that their behavior has consequences.

 

The worst that we're guilty of is not tolerating illegal behavior that is directly related to the hobby.

 

You'll have to get over it.

[Barristan]

Come on you've banned people not only for keeping illegal ants, but for various reasons, like posting memes, selling colonies too expensive, not liking persons.

 

 

 

we're capable of seeing beyond our nose.

 

The problem is, that you aren't but think you are. If you were you'd see how insanely high the number of banned people is and question your whole execution of your rules.

 

If you lived in Iran, would you also hunt down gay people, because it is illegal there and ban them? The only argument I hear is: "it is illegal" Not question if the law or the enforcing of the law is stupid or outdated.

[soulsynapse]

I don't have anything to talk about with someone banned from 3 german forums and the german wiki who concern trolls with disingenous arguments.

[TechAnt]

Why. Just why guys? Can we like, KILL this thread please. This is turning out into a exotic vs. native thread or another AC and invasives thread. Take this rotten argument that is going off topic into a group PM or something. I am talking to the people insulting and going off topic, the people that are staying on topic and being polite are fine.

Edited by TechAnt, September 21 2020 - 8:28 PM.

[Barristan]

I don't have anything to talk about with someone banned from 3 german forums and the german wiki who concern trolls with disingenous arguments.

 

Please get the fact straight and also get some background story. I mean if you controlled 3 discord servers I would probably also be banned from 3, now I am just from one lol.

 

But I know it is pointless to talk to you, this video describes it best:

 

The funny thing is in Chat you just recently talked to me:

 

Edited by Barristan, September 21 2020 - 8:59 PM.

[B_rad0806]

The idea of you guys debating if keeping illegal ants is pretty dumb. It has the word illegal in it so that makes it good? Also I've been muted on that server plenty of times for underaged, spamming, causing drama, blasting music in VC, posting stupid memes, and causing drama by fighting with people. I can see why all of those resulted in a mute. All they are trying to do is manage a large server full of all kinds of people. Some people might not like seeing memes or other stupid stuff and leave when they do. Obviously these mutes can seem stupid to you but it is for your own good. 

[Barristan]

Saying something is bad because it is illegal is putting the cart before the horse. Bad things should be illegal. but if things are illegal which aren't bad the law is stupid. Like say the segregation laws in the US, or anti gay laws in some Islamic countries. Or even during Nazi Germany the laws which were against Jews and their businesses.

So never argue that something is bad because it is illegal...

 

Killing someone is not bad because it is illegal, because the person is dead afterwards and doesn't live anymore... Stealing is bad, because you take away something that doesn't belong to you and another person has paid/worked for.

[Serafine]

Its still unfair that they will PURPOSELY try to find all your exotic posts and ban you even if you commited the offense on a different site.

Nobody was purposefully looking for your ants. You literally put them up for display on the internet and it was just a matter of time for someone to find them. People poke us about stuff like that all the time.
We've always been very clear about our stance on unlawfully obtained ants. You've read the rules when you joined the server, you knew all of this. It's not like we're hiding that information.
 
 

I've never seen people banned for keeping non natives, only for illegally obtained exotics

That's because we don't do that. We have a large community of europeans who keep "exotic" ants (technically even Messor barbarus is an exotic if kept in central Europe) and it's not an issue.
The issue is when people actually break the law and import ants that they cannot obtain or keep legally.
There are cases where things are complicated (ants that have been collected and exported illegally from their home countries but then legally sold in Europe) but we're trying to do our best to handle those fringe cases in a sensible way (it makes a very significant difference whether you bought these ants from a european trader in good faith or actually paid someone in that country to illegally collect and send them to you).

 

Well people don't actually get banned for keeping a non native to my knowledge, it's the way they were obtained. Keeping harmful invasives is often frowned upon on the server, but I don't think anyone has been banned for that unless the invasives were obtained illegally.

Exactly.
 
 

ah I see. Cause my impression and from what I've heard from others banned was no non-native ants at all.

No, we don't do that. There's a lot of people spreading false information because they don't like our stance or got banned for actually breaking the import/export laws of their country (and usually the first thing they do is run to FC and whine about it).
 

Our main issue with all of this is that we need to protect our community. We also have contact to professionals in the field and no myrmecologist will touch a server that allows illegal trade with a ten foot barge pole.
Right now antkeeping is a niche hobby within a niche hobby (keeping arthropods) within a niche hobby (terraristics) but it's growing. As the hobby is still small many things currently fly under the radar but the hobby has already blipped up on the screens of several US government authorities and there have been incidents of feds going to people's houses and incinerating their ants (mostly illegal traders but there have also been people who got their perfectly native ants turned to ashes because they've been in the wrong Facebook group at the wrong time and apparently the feds don't take chances when it comes to potentially invasive agricultural pests).

As the hobby grows that's where the real problems start. Due to all the illegal trade happening and ants like Solenopsis invicta and Wasmannia auropunctata causing hundreds of millions of dollars in economic damage every year antkeeping doesn't exactly have the best reputation to start with. The moment the US agricultural industry perceives antkeeping as a threat they will squash it. Doesn't matter if it's a real problem or just a perceived problem, they will campaign to nuke it and politicians will follow (and those will be absolutely happy to burn a straw man if it makes them look like they're taking the issue serious). The US agriculture industry is one of the most powerful lobbies on the entire planet and nobody in their right mind will stand against them, especially if it's an issue that only affects an itsy group of nerds that don't even have their own lobby. Antkeeping would be gone in a week and nobody would shed a tear about it. We've been assured by professionals involved in those processes that this is a VERY real possibility. It just needs one really bad incident and the hatchet will come down on the hobby with full swing.

Edited by Serafine, September 22 2020 - 12:02 PM.

[MinigunL5]

 

 

The Ants & Ant Keeping Discord server is the only one to take this to such a radical level. Seeking out a 'bad deed' that someone has done in order to get proof to ban them. 

 

 

 

Keeping illegally obtained ants vs native ants is a controversy. The AAK Discord server happens to be run by someone on one side of that controversy, and so they ban everyone who caters to the other side. How is this just? It's crazy to me how so many people tolerate such a single-minded server. 

 

I'm pretty sure there's no "battle" between illegally obtained vs native, it's literally illegal, it's against the law, I don't care for non-natives, go ahead, as long as your not releasing them, but illegally obtained ants are a different story entirely

 

You are not a police officer, it's really none of your business how people obtained the ants that they keep. This is taken even a step further when people, myself included, are banned for keeping exotic ants even when they purposefully avoid mentioning them at all on the server. Personally I believe, even as someone who maintains the "I don't care what you do" mentality, that if you are literally not breaking the rules of the server apart from solely outside of the server, where the rules do not apply, then there is absolutely no grounds for you to get banned. This is a huge problem with AAK. They maintain the fact that their server's rules apply to THE ENTIRE INTERNET. The people on that server specifically seek out people who keep exotic species to personally hunt them down and dehumanize them, branding them as "notorious illegal traders" and the like. There are seriously cases of people being called "illegal traders" and getting banned instantly (after a good old fashioned public shaming) because they caught a species that was native to their state in the next state over and brought them home.

Even worse, there have been people to be banned, without warning, for not snitching on people who are keeping exotics. In the case of my ban, I specifically avoided talking about my exotic colony anywhere on that server at all. However, I did mention then on a public server that myself and AnthonyP163 moderated. The AAK mods joined my server with alts, banned me on AAK for talking about exotics on my own server, and then proceeded to ban Anthony for not snitching on me to them. He was even a mod on AAK at that time.

To me, that behavior is absolutely absurd. As a moderator on several Discord servers I have NEVER banned anybody for something they have done outside of my server, not to mention that on Antkeeping and Ethology we just simply don't ask about exotics that people may have, because it's not our business. Somebody has Odontomachus in Nebraska? Oh well, I'm sure they have a permit or something. Because it's not our business to ask. We are just Discord moderators, not police officers.

 

They hunt exotic keepers down. How is that right? They're enforcing their rules on everything you do. It's not even their business! Some people have spent days if not weeks chatting and yet after all their support of the server they get banned for not telling the mods someone in the server keeps exotics. How tf is that okay!? 
AAK may have a lot of VERY big problems but it's still a great recourse for ant-keepers. I just wish it wasn't so authoritarian...

SO many knowledgeable people have been banned.

Edited by MinigunL5, September 22 2020 - 4:22 AM.

[KitsAntVa]

Honestly discord is a site that people go to do many things on, like play games with friends post memes and well then ¨talk about ants¨ i can agree some mods are just insane my friend has been banned from a trading server for misspelling once, honestly we have our own website which is great its our own little place that everything is ants bees wasp or termites i don't like the discord but i will make an exception for some of the things on there. You have many basically very knowledged and skilled people that use it but most times discord is a place to argue and not talk about ants, unless your arguing about them. that's all I'm saying people don't like it because of how its basically a debate site where people fight all the time about whos right or wrong but it's not about politics though. lol

[BlueLance213]

Ok guys, I know everyone wants to prove their own points etc, but right now all your doing is arguing and repeating the same thing over and over.

 

Drop the topic, let the post die, all this is doing is bringing hate into the forums and honestly for any new antkeeper seeing this I honestly feel its a disappointment, if you want to continue arguing back and forth, use DMs. Yes we can ignore it but you all keep bringing it back up every few hours.

 

There are now multiple people asking you to stop, so please be courteous and do so.

[MinigunL5]

I don't have anything to talk about with someone banned from 3 german forums and the german wiki who concern trolls with disingenous arguments.

He's right though, a lot of people were wrongfully banned. Personally, I think it might be a good idea to make it easier for people to be unbanned. Maybe a ban appeal form? 

[madbiologist]

I don't have anything to talk about with someone banned from 3 german forums and the german wiki who concern trolls with disingenous arguments.

He's right though, a lot of people were wrongfully banned. Personally, I think it might be a good idea to make it easier for people to be unbanned. Maybe a ban appeal form?

There is an appeal process, yes.

Sent from my moto g stylus using Tapatalk

[Kaelwizard]

KILL THIS THREAD PLEASE!

[MinigunL5]

 

 

I don't have anything to talk about with someone banned from 3 german forums and the german wiki who concern trolls with disingenous arguments.

He's right though, a lot of people were wrongfully banned. Personally, I think it might be a good idea to make it easier for people to be unbanned. Maybe a ban appeal form?

There is an appeal process, yes.

Sent from my moto g stylus using Tapatalk

 

An easier one though.

Edited by MinigunL5, September 22 2020 - 6:05 AM.

[TechAnt]

KILL THIS THREAD for goodness sake..

Edited by TechAnt, September 22 2020 - 7:25 AM.

[Nanahira]

This page is a like farm now, just say "kill this thread" and watch your reputation points roll in!

[TechAnt]

This page is a like farm now, just say "kill this thread" and watch your reputation points roll in!

Yup.