162 replies to this topic

[NickAnter]

Not another one......... There already is a thread for this.

 

https://www.formicul...d-server/page-2

 

Use this, as its hidden from the rest of the forum for bashing and supporting the server.

[Froggy]

 

 

The Ants & Ant Keeping Discord server is the only one to take this to such a radical level. Seeking out a 'bad deed' that someone has done in order to get proof to ban them. 

 

 

 

Keeping illegally obtained ants vs native ants is a controversy. The AAK Discord server happens to be run by someone on one side of that controversy, and so they ban everyone who caters to the other side. How is this just? It's crazy to me how so many people tolerate such a single-minded server. 

 

I'm pretty sure there's no "battle" between illegally obtained vs native, it's literally illegal, it's against the law, I don't care for non-natives, go ahead, as long as your not releasing them, but illegally obtained ants are a different story entirely

 

You are not a police officer, it's really none of your business how people obtained the ants that they keep. This is taken even a step further when people, myself included, are banned for keeping exotic ants even when they purposefully avoid mentioning them at all on the server. Personally I believe, even as someone who maintains the "I don't care what you do" mentality, that if you are literally not breaking the rules of the server apart from solely outside of the server, where the rules do not apply, then there is absolutely no grounds for you to get banned. This is a huge problem with AAK. They maintain the fact that their server's rules apply to THE ENTIRE INTERNET. The people on that server specifically seek out people who keep exotic species to personally hunt them down and dehumanize them, branding them as "notorious illegal traders" and the like. There are seriously cases of people being called "illegal traders" and getting banned instantly (after a good old fashioned public shaming) because they caught a species that was native to their state in the next state over and brought them home.

Even worse, there have been people to be banned, without warning, for not snitching on people who are keeping exotics. In the case of my ban, I specifically avoided talking about my exotic colony anywhere on that server at all. However, I did mention then on a public server that myself and AnthonyP163 moderated. The AAK mods joined my server with alts, banned me on AAK for talking about exotics on my own server, and then proceeded to ban Anthony for not snitching on me to them. He was even a mod on AAK at that time.

To me, that behavior is absolutely absurd. As a moderator on several Discord servers I have NEVER banned anybody for something they have done outside of my server, not to mention that on Antkeeping and Ethology we just simply don't ask about exotics that people may have, because it's not our business. Somebody has Odontomachus in Nebraska? Oh well, I'm sure they have a permit or something. Because it's not our business to ask. We are just Discord moderators, not police officers.

 

well I'm no cop, but I'm pretty sure breaking the law is bad

[AnthonyP163]

 

 

 

The Ants & Ant Keeping Discord server is the only one to take this to such a radical level. Seeking out a 'bad deed' that someone has done in order to get proof to ban them. 

 

 

 

Keeping illegally obtained ants vs native ants is a controversy. The AAK Discord server happens to be run by someone on one side of that controversy, and so they ban everyone who caters to the other side. How is this just? It's crazy to me how so many people tolerate such a single-minded server. 

 

I'm pretty sure there's no "battle" between illegally obtained vs native, it's literally illegal, it's against the law, I don't care for non-natives, go ahead, as long as your not releasing them, but illegally obtained ants are a different story entirely

 

You are not a police officer, it's really none of your business how people obtained the ants that they keep. This is taken even a step further when people, myself included, are banned for keeping exotic ants even when they purposefully avoid mentioning them at all on the server. Personally I believe, even as someone who maintains the "I don't care what you do" mentality, that if you are literally not breaking the rules of the server apart from solely outside of the server, where the rules do not apply, then there is absolutely no grounds for you to get banned. This is a huge problem with AAK. They maintain the fact that their server's rules apply to THE ENTIRE INTERNET. The people on that server specifically seek out people who keep exotic species to personally hunt them down and dehumanize them, branding them as "notorious illegal traders" and the like. There are seriously cases of people being called "illegal traders" and getting banned instantly (after a good old fashioned public shaming) because they caught a species that was native to their state in the next state over and brought them home.

Even worse, there have been people to be banned, without warning, for not snitching on people who are keeping exotics. In the case of my ban, I specifically avoided talking about my exotic colony anywhere on that server at all. However, I did mention then on a public server that myself and AnthonyP163 moderated. The AAK mods joined my server with alts, banned me on AAK for talking about exotics on my own server, and then proceeded to ban Anthony for not snitching on me to them. He was even a mod on AAK at that time.

To me, that behavior is absolutely absurd. As a moderator on several Discord servers I have NEVER banned anybody for something they have done outside of my server, not to mention that on Antkeeping and Ethology we just simply don't ask about exotics that people may have, because it's not our business. Somebody has Odontomachus in Nebraska? Oh well, I'm sure they have a permit or something. Because it's not our business to ask. We are just Discord moderators, not police officers.

 

well I'm no cop, but I'm pretty sure breaking the law is bad

 

Let's put it like this: The moderators of an online chatting server ban people from their chatting server, who could live thousands of miles away, because they brought an ant over an imaginary line, which means they broke a rule. Then, anyone who is sympathetic to the people who got banned from the server is also banned. It is honestly silly.

 

The result of them banning everyone who supports people with exotics? A single-minded server, with a rather strict dogma. Over time, all it's done is spiral and spiral beyond reason. They're now banning Europeans who obtained American ants, and banning people who sold to someone which then took ants out of state.

 

It's a Discord server, not a law enforcement agency.

 

[Vendayn]

I think the main problem with the discord after thinking about it, is they treat it like a witch hunt. Many of the members think keeping anything not native makes someone a criminal, so that means people who keep the common bearded dragons, or cats or dogs or many other pets are also criminals. Not every member thinks that, but by default there are members that automatically call anyone keeping anything not native a criminal. So almost everyone in the US to them is a criminal, since bearded dragons, many other reptiles and again, cats/dogs are also not native. Its those members that ruin it for the discord, they are radicalized. And if they find out you keep something not native, they witch hunt and destroy your name on the internet. You either have to agree with them or they hunt you down and try to ruin your name, like what happens in the real world to anyone who disagrees with someone. But never let them know if you have a bearded dragon or anything that isn't native, even if gotten them legally from popular retail petstores. Again, not every member thinks that, but its the crazy radicals that ruin it.

 

The discord would be okay for that, but it goes back to my previous statement they run it like a dystopion fake-utopia where anything that seems wrong and then it becomes a witch hunt.

Edited by Vendayn, September 21 2020 - 4:39 PM.

[madbiologist]

I think the main problem with the discord after thinking about it, is they treat it like a witch hunt. Many of the members think keeping anything not native makes someone a criminal, so that means people who keep the common bearded dragons, or cats or dogs or many other pets are also criminals. Not every member thinks that, but by default there are members that automatically call anyone keeping anything not native a criminal. So almost everyone in the US to them is a criminal, since bearded dragons, many other reptiles and again, cats/dogs are also not native. Its those members that ruin it for the discord, they are radicalized. And if they find out you keep something not native, they witch hunt and destroy your name on the internet. You either have to agree with them or they hunt you down and try to ruin your name, like what happens to two certain ------ sides in the real world. But never let them know if you have a bearded dragon or anything that isn't native, even if gotten them legally from popular retail petstores. Again, not every member thinks that, but its the crazy radicals that ruin it.

The discord would be okay for that, but it goes back to my previous statement they run it like a dystopion fake-utopia where anything that seems wrong and then it becomes a witch hunt.

As someone who is fairly active on the server, I have never seen any such witch hunt over a non-native species. Tons of Americans keep Tetramorium immigrans, some keep Solenopsis invicta, others keep Tetramorium bicarinatum or Camponotus planatus. As long as the ant is legally obtained, and is not the result of illegal trading, the AAK mods don't care. If you do keep species from illegal trade, they will ban you, and it is their right to do so, they aren't the government, so they aren't restricted by free speech, and if they were the government, they would simply fine you and take the illegal ants, because they're illegal. It is the server administration's choice to not support illegal activities within the hobby, and I don't really see a reason not to support that decision. There's no real argument to say that illegal trade is okay.

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Edited by madbiologist, September 21 2020 - 4:46 PM.

[Vendayn]

 

I think the main problem with the discord after thinking about it, is they treat it like a witch hunt. Many of the members think keeping anything not native makes someone a criminal, so that means people who keep the common bearded dragons, or cats or dogs or many other pets are also criminals. Not every member thinks that, but by default there are members that automatically call anyone keeping anything not native a criminal. So almost everyone in the US to them is a criminal, since bearded dragons, many other reptiles and again, cats/dogs are also not native. Its those members that ruin it for the discord, they are radicalized. And if they find out you keep something not native, they witch hunt and destroy your name on the internet. You either have to agree with them or they hunt you down and try to ruin your name, like what happens to two certain ------ sides in the real world. But never let them know if you have a bearded dragon or anything that isn't native, even if gotten them legally from popular retail petstores. Again, not every member thinks that, but its the crazy radicals that ruin it.

The discord would be okay for that, but it goes back to my previous statement they run it like a dystopion fake-utopia where anything that seems wrong and then it becomes a witch hunt.

As someone who is fairly active on the server, I have never seen any such witch hunt over a non-native species. Tons of Americans keep Tetramorium immigrans, some keep Solenopsis invicta, others keep Tetramorium bicarinatum or Camponotus planatus. As long as the ant is legally obtained, and is not the result of illegal trading, the AAK mods don't care. If you do keep species from illegal trade, they will ban you, and it is their right to do so, they aren't the government, so they aren't restricted by free speech, and if they were the government, they would simply fine you and take the illegal ants, because they're illegal. It is the server administration's choice to not support illegal activities within the hobby, and I don't really see a reason not to support that decision. There's no real argument to say that illegal trade is okay.

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Well someone in chat who uses discord mostly, said barristan was a criminal just because he has non-natives, and in germany he can legally get them so it doesn't even make him a criminal if he is abiding by his nations laws.

 

Though if someone releases exotics, or gets the exotics in an illegal manner (or having just in general illegal ones, like Solenopsis invicta in quarantine in California) that is different.

[Ants_Dakota]

I feel like there are some people, from what i am hearing, who did keep exotic ants illegally, and got banned. Then, the moderators started to ban others because of the ones who kept them illegally. I feel like we are debating two separate arguments at the same time. I am not on the discord, so maybe what i am saying is not correct, but that is what i am seeing.

[Manitobant]

I mean i have no problem with them banning people who mention exotics ON the server, but when they go out of their way to find the smallest bit of evidence that you have done something, no matter how long ago it was or if you have changed since then, it is completely unfair and done for the hell of it. Heck, before i got banned the mods kept asking whether or not i was on just so they could publicly shame me.

[madbiologist]

Well someone in chat who uses discord mostly, said barristan was a criminal just because he has non-natives

If someone said that, they are wrong. However, I have not seen anyone say that, and that certainly is not the Mods' opinion. They know that non natives are legal in Europe with the correct import procedures, and they don't ban over that.


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[Ants_Dakota]

I am pretty sure we all agree that keeping exotics without a permit is illegal. The thing we disagree on is that you should not ban people on you server for mentioning they keep exotics on other servers other than your own. Just defining the argument.

[NickAnter]

Its a discord server, not a person who stole a $2000 TV, or in some peoples view, the $2000 TV. What is the point of throwing a fit over a chat room? And raising your blood pressure over some random person on the internet, disagreeing with your views on this chat room?

 

I do get, however, the fact that this is one of the few amazing places where you do have decent freedom of speech on a social media platform, and that this is one of the few places that tolerates stuff like this, and for good reason. We are not robots, and deserve to be able to speak what is on our mind in public(online or in the real world), as long as long it is not a threat of violence, or an encouragement to do so.

[BlueLance213]

Kinda straying off topic, but might as well ask.

 

What do you all define "Exotic" i.e something that isn't native to the country you live in? Just asking because I would honestly love to join the discord but I am curious to know about what people mean by it before I do.

[madbiologist]

Kinda straying off topic, but might as well ask.

What do you all define "Exotic" i.e something that isn't native to the country you live in? Just asking because I would honestly love to join the discord but I am curious to know about what people mean by it before I do.

When people say exotic, in my experience they are generally referring to illegally sourced ants, but not always. The AAK server is a very open and welcoming place (unless you're an illegal trader, that is).

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[ArmansAnts]

For anyone who thinks banning people with illegals is reasonable, what is your direct reasoning besides just because the rules say so? People who have broken the law are not banned from using Discord. The only thing that goes against Discord's ToS is using the platform for criminal activity. So if someone has illegal ants, is not promoting the purchase of illegal ants, and is not using the Discord server to sell/buy exotic ants...what's the problem? If the idea is that exotic ants are bad, and the legality doesn't matter, that's just not true because they say they don't ban people who have legally obtained exotics. Not to add the countless people banned for accusations among other meaningless reasons, such as being friends with "notorious illegal traders." And then the people who have exotics but are given a warning and told to simply not talk about them instead of being banned? Then people getting banned for "unethical selling," while other people are selling the exact same way and have no punishment? It just doesn't add up.

[DDD101DDD]

I think that the reason the server owner/moderators doesn't like illegal ants is because they want to have a somewhat professional server.

[Manitobant]

Well it also claims to be THE server for antkeeping, although everyone has the same pro native viewpoint as the mods or else they'll be banned. And as we all know, the community is very divided on that issue, so it can't possibly be THE antkeeping server

[SleepyAsianAnter]

Don't do illegal stuff, then you don't get banned, pretty simple

 

But PLEASE, can we let this thread just die, don't need to revive it every time you get mad

[DDD101DDD]

Well it also claims to be THE server for antkeeping, although everyone has the same pro native viewpoint as the mods or else they'll be banned. And as we all know, the community is very divided on that issue, so it can't possibly be THE antkeeping server

Where did they ever say that they were THE server for antkeeping? It's simply the largest one. There are a few other ones. I'm not sure what you mean by "pro native". As in encouraging keeping only native species?

[AnthonyP163]

Don't do illegal stuff, then you don't get banned, pretty simple

This is exactly what is being argued against. 

 

I did not do 'illegal stuff'. I tolerated people who did 'illegal stuff'. I was given a choice between being allowed back into the server, or staying friends with the various banned members I knew. I obviously chose the latter, and therefore, because I refused to be loyal to their morals, I am still banned over 2 years later. I've discussed being unbanned with multiple moderators multiple times, to no avail. This is no good cause, advocating to make the hobby better, this is the result of someone highly opinionated having an influential position.

[ArmansAnts]

I think that the reason the server owner/moderators doesn't like illegal ants is because they want to have a somewhat professional server.

It's a Discord server primarily for hobbyists advertised for people of all skill levels. Additionally, they don't have to allow illegal activity in the server as that is against Discord ToS. It becomes problematic when they're banning people who literally just keep a colony of ants that they got illegally. Those are still people part of the hobby, and whether or not they keep illegals should not be the business of people on Discord.