8 replies to this topic

[P0rcelain]

i have looked around on the forum and from what i can gather this is an unusual scenario. so lets take our time with it.
this is in a lot of ways an experimental project, which some of you may not appreciate since i am new to ant keeping but to be frank, i do best when i am thrown right into the action so i see no point sitting around keeping colonies in more standard set ups to familiarize myself. if it is any consolation i have been doing an abundance of research and i by no means have no idea what i am doing. i am just inexperienced.

 

my problem is that i have set up two live vivariums for my ants. they have not been moved in yet as i am introducing critters in hopes of creating a stable mini-ecosystem first. so far i have pill bugs, earthworms and Nephrolepis plants. both pill bugs and earthworms have been introduced recently.

they have been fed with a bit of banana and shredded carrot, and wet cardboard has been placed inside the vivariums for the pill bugs.

i bought fluon hearing that it was a great insect barrier, which i have no doubt that it is, but just before i was going to apply it to be absolutely sure that the pill bugs would not escape, i found out that in its liquid form, fluon is incredibly toxic.

this is not an issue for the time being, as these pill bugs are quite heavy and do not seem to be able to climb glass. but if i want to move ants in, i need a way to either safely apply fluon or a safer alternative that will not kill the animals i have kept in these vivariums while it is drying.

i am unable to simply do the old trick where you plug up the ants nest and apply, because this is a live vivarium. there will be living creatures in here which may not respond well to fumes or other toxic substances. the vivariums are housed in fish tanks with no integrated lids. they simply have some caps that rest on the corners with a plastic sheet that rests on the caps.

some alternatives i have seen are:

- an insect tight lid

- maybe some sort of... grease... or something...

 

but that is basically it. one of my species (nylanderia sp) has extremely small workers (i am sure not the smallest any of you are familiar with, but still probably less than 2mm in length). they are stopped by talcum powder but the fumes of alcohol used means it would be impossible to apply it in this way without gasing them. any help at all would be appreciated because i have absolutely no idea what to do or where to go. i got this far and suddenly i am hit with this enormous roadblock. i am sure you know the feeling.

Edited by P0rcelain, March 2 2020 - 6:18 PM.

[Nare]

Olive / vegetable oil or vaseline may work in a pinch, but talcum powder and fluon are still better in my experience. Trying to think of a safe way to apply either substance, I suspect perhaps a layer of painter's tape below the area where the fluon is to be applied might be sufficient in stopping it from dripping down into the vivarium. If it is applied in a well ventilated space, the fumes may dissipate before they cause any harm. However, fluon and talcum powder will fail in high humidity, so they may not be an optimal choice for your setup anyways.

 

So I'd suggest trying some sort of cooking oil (preferably olive oil because I've seen that used before and used it myself). Again, I assume vegetable oil will also work.

[P0rcelain]

i have heard vegetable/olive oil drips a fair bit

is this easily avoided by applying thinner coatings or is that just one of the things you trade off for using it?

[drtrmiller]

Fluon is simply extremely fine particles of slippery PTFE plastic which are suspended in a water solution.  In small applications, no fumes are liberated and there is virtually no chance of harm to animals unless they touch it while it is still wet.

That said, the biggest hindrance in your case is the fact that you are constructing a vivarium with plants and other moisture-loving arthropods.  Fluon is best suited for dry-loving species, because high humidity will cause rapid, irreversible failure of the coating.

 

In your case, you need a physical barrier, such as a lid with mesh screen, which can prevent the escape of the insects while still allowing some exchange of gasses for the plants.  Use aquarium silicone to caulk any gaps in your lid construction.

[ANTdrew]

I’ve reapplied fluon in vivariums and full ant set ups many times without harming the occupants. Humidity is the bigger issue as Dr Miller mentions. My advice is to figure out how to make an overhanging lip around your tank that you can apply fluon to. Very few ants can get across fluon upside down. Ideally, you have a species that is not that great at climbing. I contained an 8k Tetramorium colony in this way a whole season until they figured out how to pile soil up past the barrier.

[P0rcelain]

Fluon is simply extremely fine particles of slippery PTFE plastic which are suspended in a water solution.  In small applications, no fumes are liberated and there is virtually no chance of harm to animals unless they touch it while it is still wet.

That said, the biggest hindrance in your case is the fact that you are constructing a vivarium with plants and other moisture-loving arthropods.  Fluon is best suited for dry-loving species, because high humidity will cause rapid, irreversible failure of the coating.

 

In your case, you need a physical barrier, such as a lid with mesh screen, which can prevent the escape of the insects while still allowing some exchange of gasses for the plants.  Use aquarium silicone to caulk any gaps in your lid construction.

this was very helpful, thank you

i have seen your work on this forum before

do you still sell lids? is there any chance of ordering one from you, possibly custom?

i could probably make one myself, but frankly, i can not afford to screw it up and i am not a professional at all, especially when working with plastics.

i had to score some acrylic for these vivariums and i messed up about half of the cuts i did.

creating an escape proof lid is just not something i want to screw up while i am still practicing lmao

 

 

I’ve reapplied fluon in vivariums and full ant set ups many times without harming the occupants. Humidity is the bigger issue as Dr Miller mentions. My advice is to figure out how to make an overhanging lip around your tank that you can apply fluon to. Very few ants can get across fluon upside down. Ideally, you have a species that is not that great at climbing. I contained an 8k Tetramorium colony in this way a whole season until they figured out how to pile soil up past the barrier.

i have heard about this with fluon. both the ants i have seem to be quite timid. they are quite stealthy about their foraging and are often chilling out in their nests when i check on them. it is more just the fact that if i do not have a barrier of some kind, they will inevitably end up foraging the house instead. and there are people i live with who would not appreciate this.

Edited by P0rcelain, March 3 2020 - 2:36 PM.

[Ants_Dakota]

My fluon has worked well with my myrmica americana, and they were in an enclosed antscanada tower and portal, with no seen harm or ill effect. I pick fluon over baby powder just because it is not as messy and does not get everywhere when you try to spread it around.

[P0rcelain]

ok, i think i am going to attempt to make my own lids

any suggestions for doors?

i will need to be able to interact with the ants obviously (put food in, water the plants, etc) so i need an openable top that will be adequate in keeping ants out when closed

 

edit:

if i am remembering this right, all the most effective lids require you to put a coating or something on the bottom side so that the ants do not even get close to the exit. i am just unsure if the fluon will be weathered by this too.

Edited by P0rcelain, March 18 2020 - 3:22 PM.

[ANTdrew]

You could try fashioning something out of a thin sheet of acrylic. Cut out a middle section like a donut and apply fluon in the overhanging lip. For extra security, cover the open middle part with 100 micron mesh held in place with mounting putty or blue tack.